What Happened to Katie?

[Stoked]

Question for stoked. How do you feel about enabling a psychological disorder? In general not specific to gender Dysphoria.

That is way to broad of a brush to paint with. Not all disorders are equal, not all require or even benefit from the same kinds of treatment, not all have the same social stigmas...

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

Joe, you continue to characterize this as a loosening of standards. I don't see it that way, not at all. I see this as a strengthening of our standards.

You seem to think this will lead to the acceptance of damaging, hurtful, nonconsensual sexual assaults, because why? Because you see this as an acceptance of something negative?

This boogeyman of creepy men pretending to be transgendered so that they can lurk in bathrooms is based on what? What is stopping this from happening now? Is this a current issue that will get worse if we allow people to use the bathroom they feel most comfortable in? Or is this some new thing that will spring to life because as we move further into the abyss things are just going to get uglier and nastier?

Are bathrooms some sort of magical zone where anything goes and the only thing that has ever protected us from this is a magical barrier created by this amulet disguised as a sign?

And now that the barrier has been shattered the pervs who have been waiting in the wings are going to swoop in with the penises in full attack mode.

This is an imaginary problem.

It's an imaginary problem that has been brought to the forefront by the left, probably in hopes of getting a reaction from the right. You are crazy if you think it will stop here. Yes, lines of morality are arbitrary, but there are reasons that most people would prefer to live in a moral society, so these lines have to be drawn somewhere. In my opinion their current location is better than the one proponents of these sorts of plans want to move them to.

 

[Gameface]

It's an imaginary problem that has been brought to the forefront by the left, probably in hopes of getting a reaction from the right. You are crazy if you think it will stop here. Yes, lines of morality are arbitrary, but there are reasons that most people would prefer to live in a moral society, so these lines have to be drawn somewhere. In my opinion their current location is better than the one proponents of these sorts of plans want to move them to.

What immoral thing are you referring to?

 

[Boris]

That is way to broad of a brush to paint with. Not all disorders are equal, not all require or even benefit from the same kinds of treatment, not all have the same social stigmas...

Feel free to explain then. Say the difference between enabling a meth addict or transgender Dysphoria? Doing meth does not hurt anyone else. Why are we against that?

 

[Boris]

What immoral thing are you referring to?

Morality is a cultural phenomenon. You are not asking the correct context.

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

lol, you have provided no source to support your assertion. All you did was post a link to one persons personal story. You also ignore the blaring fact that one deals with consenting adults and the other with minors.

All I see is an attempt at a hatchet job. You're better than that.

Back to the creeps angle. I do think that there will be a small upswing, momentarily, in cases of assault and violation due to this cases. But some of them will be by people trying to make a point. Either way it is not sufficient enough of a reason to oppose this change IMO

That's not true. I provided links to several websites and there are many more. I could refer you to the Man Boy Love Association, etc.

The article with the case I pointed out was on Salon, a respected news website. Read the comments. While some people are disgusted, others are praising his bravery and talking about the need for greater understanding. The same thing happened withe Bruce/Catlyn Jenner situation. Initially most people were saying WTF? Then, in a matter of months he/she is being honored as a mainstream model of bravery. We are so afraid of hurting someone's feelings or of being branded as a bigot that nobody has the guts to say, wait a second, check out where this road leads. Let's not go there.

But maybe you're right. Maybe it stops here. Maybe we will not be having a similar conversation a short time down the road where everyone is telling me that I'm insensitive for not feeling sympathy for the plight of pedophiles. We'll see.

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

Question for Joe, Fish and Boris.

How do you all feel about polygamy among consenting adults?

I have no problem with it. Once it involves kids (I have had personal relationships with some "lost boys" and also with some women who claim they have "escaped" polygamy), or if it moves into the realm of "milking the great Satan" (which is the Utah polygamist term for taking advantage of welfare programs, etc.) then I have a big problem with it.

 

[fishonjazz]

Question for Joe, Fish and Boris.

How do you all feel about polygamy among consenting adults?

I have zero problem with it.

I have very little problem with anything that doesn't hurt anyone. I see no victim in polygamy if everyone involved is a willing, consenting adult.

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

What immoral thing are you referring to?

Any morals, but for the sake of this discussion let's make it simple. When we come upon an animal there is a handy way to make a determination if it's a male or a female. This method is not to ask it how it gender identifies. It is to actually look at its genitals and make the determination for ourselves. But now we are being told that where humans are concerned this is no longer a simple matter. It doesn't matter whether a human has a penis dangling between their legs. What matters is what sort of plumbing they wish they had.

But how are we supposed to know what type of plumbing they wish they had? What we do know is that animals with penises tend to be more aggressive in their use than animals who have vaginas are in their use. There are some very good evolutionary reasons for this. Do you need me to go into detail?

So, because we have plenty of data that many animals (including human animals) who happen to have penises (no matter how they gender identify) are interested in looking for places to insert them or things to rub them against, I would prefer that my government not mandate that they be welcomed into the girls showers.

 

[Stoked]

Feel free to explain then. Say the difference between enabling a meth addict or transgender Dysphoria? Doing meth does not hurt anyone else. Why are we against that?

Because we are told to be against it. The drug war has been pounded into the American psych. With disastrous results. I feel that a lot of things currently outlawed should be legal as long as they don't break other laws. Like driving impaired, stealing, assault, fraud, murder...

Also you're trying to stretch more and more.

 

[fishonjazz]

Doing meth does not hurt anyone else.

I disagree. From experience.

 

[Gameface]

Any morals, but for the sake of this discussion let's make it simple. When we come upon an animal there is a handy way to make a determination if it's a male or a female. This method is not to ask it how it gender identifies. It is to actually look at its genitals and make the determination for ourselves. But now we are being told that where humans are concerned this is no longer a simple matter. It doesn't matter whether a human has a penis dangling between their legs. What matters is what sort of plumbing they wish they had.

But how are we supposed to know what type of plumbing they wish they had? What we do know is that animals with penises tend to be more aggressive in their use than animals who have vaginas are in their use. There are some very good evolutionary reasons for this. Do you need me to go into detail?

So, because we have plenty of data that many animals (including human animals) who happen to have penises (no matter how they gender identify) are interested in looking for places to insert them or things to rub them against, I would prefer that my government not mandate that they be welcomed into the girls showers.

I'm still searching for the moral breakdown.

Is it immoral for a person with a penis to identify as a female?

or

Is it immoral for a person with a penis who identifies as a woman to use a woman's restroom?

or

Is it immoral for a man who identifies as a man to pretend to be a man dressed as a woman because they identify as a woman but actually don't and to then go into a woman's restroom because somehow that's a preferred place for them to rub their penis on things?


And I'm a man and a civilized, hose-broken, non-violent person. This idea that men are so sexually aggressive that they are going to use this in some extraordinarily convoluted way to get close to little girls making pee-pee doesn't follow. Like, if a perverted man wanted to get close to children all they really need to do is get a position of authority at their local church. That's how they've been doing it for thousands of years.

 

[♪alt13]

Apparently ostracizing people who haven't hurt anyone until they commit suicide is moral, accepting them is not. weird

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

I'm still searching for the moral breakdown.

Is it immoral for a person with a penis to identify as a female?

or

Is it immoral for a person with a penis who identifies as a woman to use a woman's restroom?

or

Is it immoral for a man who identifies as a man to pretend to be a man dressed as a woman because they identify as a woman but actually don't and to then go into a woman's restroom because somehow that's a preferred place for them to rub their penis on things?


And I'm a man and a civilized, hose-broken, non-violent person. This idea that men are so sexually aggressive that they are going to use this in some extraordinarily convoluted way to get close to little girls making pee-pee doesn't follow. Like, if a perverted man wanted to get close to children all they really need to do is get a position of authority at their local church. That's how they've been doing it for thousands of years.

Okay, good. Based upon what you are saying I have a feeling that you will be stunned and I won't when we discover that pervs are taking advantage of these government mandates to get closer to our children. I also have a feeling that you will be stunned and I won't when the conversation progresses to acceptance and compassion for other sorts of sexual deviants. And finally, I have a feeling that you will be stunned and I won't when this increased acceptance of sexual deviance results in an increase in the incidence of sexual deviance.

 

[Gameface]

Okay, good. Based upon what you are saying I have a feeling that you will be stunned and I won't when we discover that pervs are taking advantage of these government mandates to get closer to our children. I also have a feeling that you will be stunned and I won't when the conversation progresses to acceptance and compassion for other sorts of sexual deviants. And finally, I have a feeling that you will be stunned and I won't when this increased acceptance of sexual deviance results in an increase in the incidence of sexual deviance.

Can you tell me which of the three options you find to be immoral?

 

[Gameface]

I just wonder what kinds of experiences some of you have had in bathrooms.

I don't really like it at all when I'm at a urinal and despite urinals further away someone uses the urinal right next to me. Like that is an unusual thing to do and it bugs me.

I also don't like to take a dump in a public restroom and if I have to I absolutely don't want to do it in a crowded restroom and won't use a stall if there is a person in an adjacent stall. And like above, if someone comes in after me and uses the stall next to me I don't like it.

You guys act like we're all just rocking out with our ***** out in the restroom and that women are having naked pillow fights in theirs.

I'm pretty sure 99% of what happens in a female restroom is a woman (or girl) going into a stall by their self, closing the door, sitting on the toilet to go pee, getting up, leaving the stall, washing their hands and getting on with their day. Where in that is this huge opening for sexual assault?

If anyone is "hanging out" in a restroom they are acting strange. If anyone is doing things in a restroom inconsistent with pooping, peeing or washing up then they are acting strange. It'll be noticeable. It'll be, you know, strange.

If a young girl goes into a restroom and is approached by a stranger won't they know that this is not normal.

When's the last time anyone has made physical contact with you in a restroom? In my nearly 40 years I don't think it has ever happened. I don't see restrooms as some particularly vulnerable place for people to be.

 

[fishonjazz]

I'm still searching for the moral breakdown.

Is it immoral for a person with a penis to identify as a female?

or

Is it immoral for a person with a penis who identifies as a woman to use a woman's restroom?

or

Is it immoral for a man who identifies as a man to pretend to be a man dressed as a woman because they identify as a woman but actually don't and to then go into a woman's restroom because somehow that's a preferred place for them to rub their penis on things?


And I'm a man and a civilized, hose-broken, non-violent person. This idea that men are so sexually aggressive that they are going to use this in some extraordinarily convoluted way to get close to little girls making pee-pee doesn't follow. Like, if a perverted man wanted to get close to children all they really need to do is get a position of authority at their local church. That's how they've been doing it for thousands of years.

I think that you and I have logical properly functioning brains. I don't think all child molesters and sexual predators think logically and have properly functioning brains.

You and I would say "what's stopping a man from dressing like a woman and going into women's private areas (bathrooms and showers) right now? That's logical and makes sense.

However there could feasibly be a man who prefers to peep through windows at night because of the cover of darkness and currently are too scared to attempt to dress as a woman and go into women's private areas.
Then they see that men (in their minds cause transgenders have penises....again, they don't think like you and I and don't believe in this "identifying as a woman thing) can legally go into women's private areas now. So they see this as low hanging fruit to try to video women peeing with their phones or to simply listen to them peeing while rubbing one out in the next stall all the while thinking that they have this loophole that makes what they are doing ok now or easier to get away with. Again we know that doesn't make sense because we are not mentally ill.

And again, I think that a scenario like the one above would be so infrequent that it is something to not really be worried about and the amount of transgenders who would benefit from a rule change is so high that is totally something that should be done.

But again, you have to look at everything and take into account the fact that everyone isn't logical and not everyone thinks of things in a normal way.

 

[franklin]

This thread is a complete train wreck. Pretty much the only post I could relate to was SKA's discussion of trade-offs vs freedoms and [MENTION=643]Jazz Spazz[/MENTION] post about drawing a line in the sand. We've gone through this discussion with TSA, NY Subway, etc. This is no different.

I'm still searching for the moral breakdown.

Is it immoral for a person with a penis to identify as a female?

or

Is it immoral for a person with a penis who identifies as a woman to use a woman's restroom?

or

Is it immoral for a man who identifies as a man to pretend to be a man dressed as a woman because they identify as a woman but actually don't and to then go into a woman's restroom because somehow that's a preferred place for them to rub their penis on things?


And I'm a man and a civilized, hose-broken, non-violent person. This idea that men are so sexually aggressive that they are going to use this in some extraordinarily convoluted way to get close to little girls making pee-pee doesn't follow. Like, if a perverted man wanted to get close to children all they really need to do is get a position of authority at their local church. That's how they've been doing it for thousands of years.

Sexual violence against women is widespread. You would be surprised how many women you know have been raped or abused by someone they know. An uncle, older brother, grandparent, boyfriend... Maybe chivalry is dead, but my vote is against this declaration over my want to protect women. [MENTION=249]NAOS[/MENTION] go ahead and call me a rapist culture fear monger but you and I know it exists and I personally feel this creates a strict environment for abuse.

----------


One thing that hasn't been discussed is creating some discriminatory practice of registering transgendered people to create some sort of barrier between the average man and a true trans. I don't think anyone really GAF if a dude who thinks he's a chick uses the women's restroom. However, creating that environment as a solution is as discriminatory as you can get. Just a random thought as an extension to the convo.

Also [MENTION=26]Gameface[/MENTION], the sign is not the barrier. It is the people around the sign who act as monitors to that barrier and can alert on odd behavior.

 

[fishonjazz]

I just wonder what kinds of experiences some of you have had in bathrooms.

I don't really like it at all when I'm at a urinal and despite urinals further away someone uses the urinal right next to me. Like that is an unusual thing to do and it bugs me.

I also don't like to take a dump in a public restroom and if I have to I absolutely don't want to do it in a crowded restroom and won't use a stall if there is a person in an adjacent stall. And like above, if someone comes in after me and uses the stall next to me I don't like it.

You guys act like we're all just rocking out with our ***** out in the restroom and that women are having naked pillow fights in theirs.

I take it you don't believe that sexual predators and child molesters think differently than normal people.

Btw, one of my best friend had sex with two girls in a bathroom at a club in downtown slc on new years eve many years ago.
Some people do drugs in bathrooms. Some people go into a bathroom to change their clothes (since they are private places).

Bathrooms don't only get used for peeing and pooping.

 

[franklin]

Does your mom like you calling people sexist terms while claiming moral high ground?

On a side note having worked full time through all of college and paid for both of my bachelor degrees and my masters degree 100% by myself I dont feel higher education should be free. I too was the first generation in my family to get a college degree and the first sibling to get a masters although my older brother has since followed my footsteps. Although I am the first to admit that doing it myself was easier being a white person with support and encouragement from people around me that most dont get. I dont think we should pay for more higher education until people take advantage of the first two years of college being free in the USA for everyone already. If anything they should extend that credit out. Bill Clinton already made 2 years free and people didnt take advantage of that and still dont except the rich white class as a group. Most poor people and minorities can get all of their education for free they just need help understanding how to and encouraged to do so. Making college free would only benefit the rich white people in the USA, its a waste of tax dollars. One of many problems with the "Bernie" philosophy. Nice ideas until you dig into them. There is a reason why he is largely supported by young white people, they tend to be naive and buy into nice sounding ideas.

Most of these talking points are aimed at and supported by young, rich white folks because they are the majority voting class. Most of the anti-wellfare talking points are aimed against poor people with a little more color in their skin because they are the minority and tend to vote a whole lot less.

There are economic studies that show raising minimum wage will mainly benefit children of wealthy white families and will do nothing for the poor. There are studies that show that the vast majority of student debt problems come from children of privilege who go to prestigious colleges. Yet the bleeding heart liberals do not care about any of these details.