Gay Nightclub mass shooting -- Orlando, Florida

[Dr. Jones]

Someone/something has to create killers. No one lives in a bubble. Someone has to create that atmosphere, the views, the hate. It doesn't happen on its own, and we give those people who create that hate a pass.

When mass killings and even genocide happens around the world, we tend to demand that politicians and soldiers be brought to justice. Those directly involved in ordering and perpetrating atrocities. We never think to go after journalist who would stoke fires of hate, who would dehumanize entire groups, and sometimes outright call for killing. We never think to go after all kinds of non-political and non-military public figures who created the hate. I know there's criminal responsibility, but is there no moral responsibility?

I mean, the father of this perpetrator claims he saw two man kissing and it made the dude angry. Ok, clearly, he told you about if you're telling us about it. What did you tell him as a father? Did you tell him there was nothing wrong with being gay? That two men kissing isn't something shocking, it's normal? Did you spend 30 years raising a son by telling him to love everyone and not hate anyone? Did you show him, by words and deeds, that gay people are people just like you and your son? I'd love to ask the father this. I'd love to ask if he feels moral responsibility for this? If other people feel any moral responsibility for creating a culture of hate.

It's obvious you're a legit radical sympathisizer.
Fine.

But why try to rationalize it? Just kill, right?

 

[stitches]

Someone/something has to create killers. No one lives in a bubble. Someone has to create that atmosphere, the views, the hate. It doesn't happen on its own, and we give those people who create that hate a pass.

When mass killings and even genocide happens around the world, we tend to demand that politicians and soldiers be brought to justice. Those directly involved in ordering and perpetrating atrocities. We never think to go after journalist who would stoke fires of hate, who would dehumanize entire groups, and sometimes outright call for killing. We never think to go after all kinds of non-political and non-military public figures who created the hate. I know there's criminal responsibility, but is there no moral responsibility?

I mean, the father of this perpetrator claims he saw two man kissing and it made the dude angry. Ok, clearly, he told you about if you're telling us about it. What did you tell him as a father? Did you tell him there was nothing wrong with being gay? That two men kissing isn't something shocking, it's normal? Did you spend 30 years raising a son by telling him to love everyone and not hate anyone? Did you show him, by words and deeds, that gay people are people just like you and your son? I'd love to ask the father this. I'd love to ask if he feels moral responsibility for this? If other people feel any moral responsibility for creating a culture of hate.

Hard to disagree with anything here and my opinion is very similar. I just thought that you went after #bern a bit too hard. I guess it's just a matter of disagreement over style rathern than substance. Cheers.

 

[Dr. Jones]

And the two are completely unrelated?

They can be, 100%.
Are you suggesting that one should act on every emotion?
I mean, really, do you?

 

[Deleted member 848]

It's obvious you're a legit radical sympathisizer.
Fine.

But why try to rationalize it? Just kill, right?

Stepping away from the homophobic issue for a second-- you've mentioned that you prefer an incremental approach to a radical approach before.


Hypothetically, (and this applies to all) how much gun violence will it take for you to shift your stance on the 2nd amendment? Honest question.

 

[Dr. Jones]

I think it's a 1+1

- rampant homophobia across the US, across all Abrahamic faiths
- bizarre access to firearms (including particularly deadly ones)

Personal views very much lead to actions. Gay marriage barely passed 5-4 in the Supreme Court & it's already being threatened to be reversed.

I think we still fail to correlate mass slayings with moral takes.
It's a tough time.

 

[RandyForRubio]

You disagree with homosexuality? What the hell does that mean? Can I disagree with people being black or people being Muslim? How about the disabled? Women?

You know what? **** you. **** you and everyone else who spouts this ******** of "I don't approve of who you are but I'm kinda okay with you" and pretends that it doesn't create a culture. That it doesn't lead to homophobia. That it doesn't lead to a guy taking a gun and killing fifty people and wounding another fifty. Because the guy didn't just get like that. You don't just shoot black people or gay people or whoever else. You do it because there's a chunk of society that normalizes hatred of other groups. And yes, those like you hide behind their ******** veneer of "disagreement"(just be honest to yourself and us and say that you think less of gay people) and then pretend that you and so many others looking down on what someone does or who someone is isn't a big deal. It doesn't contribute to anything, and certainly not violence. You just disagree. No biggie.

100 casualties, but this nice man just disagrees with homosexuality. Doesn't want them dead. Just disagrees with them.

Right, and I'm the one with the hateful message here.

I think we're all sinners, and I don't think any less of anybody for their sins. I've been in the same place, so why would I look down on somebody for doing something I've done?

I don't need you to believe me, Jim. I would hope that you did, and I wish you really could see my heart in this, but I do not need nor do I seek your approval. If you're going to continue responding the way you just did, save your breath, because it does not justify a response.

 

[Dr. Jones]

Stepping away from the homophobic issue for a second-- you've mentioned that you prefer an incremental approach to a radical approach before.


Hypothetically, (and this applies to all) how much gun violence will it take for you to shift your stance on the 2nd amendment? Honest question.

I'm thinking, tbh.

I'm weighing good people wanting to protect themselves/told the can't. Vs. no guns.. Except those that try (a la coke).

Not an easy call.

 

[JimLes]

They can be, 100%.

Only one direction, though. You can hate gays without going to a club and shooting it up, but you can't specifically target and shoot up a gay club without hating guys. Either way, without hating gays, none of this ever happens.

 

[Dr. Jones]

Only one direction, though. You can hate gays without going to a club and shooting it up, but you can't specifically target and shoot up a gay club without hating guys. Either way, without hating gays, none of this ever happens.

You're trying to make a point beyond the conversation. It's obvious.
What is it you're trying to say, Jim?

 

[JimLes]

Right, and I'm the one with the hateful message here.

I don't think you know what hate really is. I've lived through two brutal ethnic wars and I have had genocide(no, not in an exaggerated sense, but actual court ruling, legal sense) perpetrated against my own countrymen. I have had to hide my own ethnic background from people during one of those wars because it just wasn't something that would've made my life easier had too many people known. I know you think you mean well and all that, but you know jack all about what words and thoughts can lead to. Count yourself lucky you never had to learn.

But to come here after this many people have been killed for nothing more than who they are and then say "Look, I think gay people are sinning but I don't want them killed" and act like you deserve a cookie for saying it deserves a "**** you." It's insensitive, hateful, and downright idiotic. You are not part of the solution. You are part of the problem.

Just like the people saying Islamophobic stuff in this very thread. You know how this will play out. At some point, some Dylann Roof type moron will get a gun and enter a mosque instead of a black church. And he's going to kill a bunch of random people at jumu'ah and everyone will post here how horrified they are and how terrible it all is and how sure, they might have said a negative thing or two about the rising Muslim immigration to the States or how Muslims are or aren't doing this or that. But they meant well. And surely, they could not possibly be morally responsible, even in the tiniest way for the climate of hate. The shooter was probably mentally ill, they always are, right?

Just like you thinking homosexuality is a sin in no way increases general homophobia in the society. Nope, nope, nope. That's just your belief and who am I to question it. And the world gets worse and worse every day. The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere the ceremony of innocence is drowned.

 

[JimLes]

You're trying to make a point beyond the conversation. It's obvious.
What is it you're trying to say, Jim?

That a man does not wake up in the morning having, all on his own, figured out that gays are subhuman and must be killed. That things said and done by those around him influence him. They are, to a degree, complicit in it.

 

[Stoked]

But you didn't question it. You displayed your own anger and aggression. You've recently painted a black and white world in several threads and that's crap.

 

[Stoked]

That a man does not wake up in the morning having, all on his own, figured out that gays are subhuman and must be killed. That things said and done by those around him influence him. They are, to a degree, complicit in it.

Then you are complicit in the church shooting in S Carolina a few months ago. I hope you're ashamed.

 

[Dr. Jones]

That a man does not wake up in the morning having, all on his own, figured out that gays are subhuman and must be killed. That things said and done by those around him influence him. They are, to a degree, complicit in it.

So these radicals are justified?

 

[GVC]

So these radicals are justified?

You have a serious reading comprehension problem in this thread. He never said anything that even weakly implies that the killer's actions were justified.

 

[Dr. Jones]

You have a serious reading comprehension problem. ****, you're dumb.

Or you just take your own **** too srs.
I don't care which, btw.

 

[GVC]

Then you are complicit in the church shooting in S Carolina a few months ago.

What?

 

[Stoked]

What?

I'm simply using his own logoc to point out the absurdity. Yes my statement is absurd. That's the point.

 

[Dr. Jones]

You have a serious reading comprehension problem in this thread. He never said anything that even weakly implies that the killer's actions were justified.

Since you edited, I will respond again..

Dude says these killers are a product of their upbringing. Change the upbringing (which I agree and am for) and the actions change. Right? Hopefully. But what if the upbringing doesn't change. The result doesn't change. Presumably? Then there's an excuse? Then there's a justification?

Naw, couldn't be.

 

[GVC]

I'm simply using his own logoc to point out the absurdity. Yes my statement is absurd. That's the point.

What he's saying isn't absurd. It makes perfect sense. Culture matters.

bern expressed disapproval of a group people based on their private behavior without providing any justification. He's contributing to a culture of hate.

What has JimLes done/said that could be linked to a racially motivated shooting?