Baton Rouge Police Killing a 37-year-old black man at point blank range

[Miggs]

So **** **** the Constitution then?

Why do we treat the Constitution as if it's the holiest of holies?

 

[lauriandres]

Don't speak about principles if you're going to ignore practice. Blacks do not enjoy equal justice under the law. They are more likely to be imprisoned for the same crimes, their sentences harsher. That's the truth.




If there wasn't a racial component then you should expect that when the police shoot 500 people 385 would be white, 330 of which should be non hispanic white,and only 60 black. There's a huge statistical disparity. That's clear evidence that race is an issue. Deal with it.

Idiots like you(hack) should be ignored. We can't get close to a dialogue about solutions because we can't even have a discussion about causes because assholes like yourself deny the basic facts.

Again, when was the last police brutality incident in a Chinatown? How and why are asians behaving differently that they don't have to do this "everybody hates black people" demonstrations?
Now you probably say something like "but black people had less possibilities to get good education than asians"... as far as i know it is not against law to go to the public library, grab some educational books and study together instead roaming in the streets, crying about the miserable life and waiting for somebody to beat him up. Also, if you say that they must behave like they behave because they are poor - well, there are a lot of poorer countries which are much safer than some black ghettos. If Paharganj in New Delhi is safe (it means that the really poor (compared to US) locals are not violent), then who and/what motivates people in so called bad neighborhoods in Detroit to behave badly?

 

[The Midnight]

Again, when was the last police brutality incident in a Chinatown? How and why are asians behaving differently that they don't have to do this "everybody hates black people" demonstrations?
Now you probably say something like "but black people had less possibilities to get good education than asians"... as far as i know it is not against law to go to the public library, grab some educational books and study together instead roaming in the streets, crying about the miserable life and waiting for somebody to beat him up. Also, if you say that they must behave like they behave because they are poor - well, there are a lot of poorer countries which are much safer than some black ghettos. If Paharganj in New Delhi is safe (it means that the really poor (compared to US) locals are not violent), then who and/what motivates people in so called bad neighborhoods in Detroit to behave badly?

Have you seen the mini series "Roots" that's showing at the moment? If you watch that I think you would start to understand a little bit about black people and their history of abuse in the US...


Not saying it would explain everything but after watching it you can start to sympathise with one minority race that was disadvantaged from 200+ years ago and some of them still feel like they are being mistreated today....

 

[The Midnight]

Here's a trailer of "Roots" ... I highly recommend it.. a GREAT mini series.. that follows 1 family's struggle from being captured in Africa and sold as slaves to the US in the 1800's ...


I believe it's also based on a true story.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kL5HC48jG8E

 

[lauriandres]

Have you seen the mini series "Roots" that's showing at the moment? If you watch that I think you would start to understand a little bit about black people and their history of abuse in the US...


Not saying it would explain everything but after watching it you can start to sympathise with one minority race that was disadvantaged from 200+ years ago and some of them still feel like they are being mistreated today....

I think this is not yet on Estonian TV channels.

1. However, weren't the biggest slave traders in the beginning arabian countries and also the local black tribe leaders?

2. Question for the historians - why there were not any anti slave uprisings in Africa during the 17-19 century? As history as shown, the people in India and China had no problems creating several uprisings.
Also, in Europe Poland (during the second world war) has shown that uprising is possible even if the odds are against you.

3. Why is the Africa not united? Not like EU or USA but mentally? Previous and this century has shown plenty of evidence that blacks happily kill each other if you give them opportunity and some silly reasons ( a la you belong to a different tribe therefore we kill you).

4. Was the everyday life of blacks during the 1900-1970 worse in USA than the life of people during the German and then Soviet occupation? I do not have any links but i think that during 1920-1991 communist regimes killed a lot more people in Europe and Gulags than random whites, KKK and police killed blacks in the USA? If life was worse for blacks in USA than for ordinary people in East Germany - why did the blacks did not emigrate after WW2 to Canada or to some safe African country?

 

[fishonjazz]

If there wasn't a racial component then you should expect that when the police shoot 500 people 385 would be white, 330 of which should be non hispanic white,and only 60 black. There's a huge statistical disparity. That's clear evidence that race is an issue. Deal with it.

Maybe a little part of the problem could be the way black culture thinks about and portrays police too though right?

I have a feeling that a black person is more likely to talk **** to the cops or be defiant to the cops in interactions with them. I have a feeling that many black youth are taught from a very young age that the police are their enemy and to hate them.
Not saying that's 100% the problem but I bet it's a little part of the problem.

 

[Red]

No surprise that this thread reflects the polarization that is paralyzing this country in recent years. On so many fronts, in so many issues, polarized is our nation's middle name at the moment. At least in my lifetime, I don't think it's ever been worse. Almost makes the Vietnam era and Civil Rights era seem tame, but maybe the distance in time only makes it seem that way. Anyway, here's a story from the Dallas shootings that at least interrupts the narrative:

https://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-dallas-mother-20160710-snap-story.html

"Police rushed over, most of them white officers, and jumped on top of Taylor and her son. “There was another one at our feet and another one over our head and several of them lying against a wall. And they just stayed there with us,” she said. “I had never seen anything like that before, the way they came around us and guarded us like that.”

 

[Stoked]

Because generally speaking the police aren't shooting 12 yr old white boys with toy guns, choking 50 year old white men to death, pinning white dudes down and unloading 5 shots at point blank range. The level of aggression is much higher toward blacks than it is to whites. Anyone that refuses to see that there is a substantial racial component to these shootings is actively filtering out truth. Police are too trigger happy all around imo but clearly the problem of how the police interact with blacks is a problem of a different scale.

The rate at which blacks are killed per population is higher. But more whites are still killed every year by police, at about a 2 to 1 clip. So yes, that is happening to white people.

So yes there is a racial component (to me this is pretty clear) as that explains the disproportionate rate. But the problem is more complex than just a racial problem. There are also elements of societal aggression towards the police and bad cops.

 

[JazzGal]

It is different for Asians here because they have always been accepted as human beings. Even when forced to be basically slaves (building railroads and such), the concept of property was not like it was for African slaves. There is tons of evidence that they were not considered human by many people. (I met an old lady in 1983 who still believed this). A lot of the sentiment against them stems from American interpretations of the Bible (Cain, Ham) that blacks were cursed by God. Easy to treat a cursed race poorly.

I know people think it should be no problem to shake off the past history of your people and move on. I have no idea what it is like to be black and have that kind of oppressive history. But an example from my life is having grown up Mormon.

Mormons went through several decades of persecution by government and neighbors. They were forcibly removed from several states until they settled in Utah, and even then for quite awhile. To this day Mormons suffer from a persecution complex because of that time. It is not as great as it used to be during my younger days as they are less insulated in Utah now. It was reinforced to us that we had been treated unfairly, that we were different, that we should be separate to be safe. I now see it more as a method of control. Like I said, it isn't as much as it was even 30 years ago because of expanding into the world, but older people now still feel the effects from it.

Poor black communities who stay pretty insular are going to have an even stronger identity with persecution. It is passed down generation to generation. Perhaps black leaders also use it as a method of control. It is not easy to escape a persecution complex grilled into you from birth. You know nothing else, and you have little opportunity to learn something else because you are not exposed to the greater world. There are those who escape from this, but the vast majority cannot.

Honestly, I have no idea, but this is what makes sense to me.

Sent from my HTC6535LVW using JazzFanz mobile app

 

[JazzGal]

Looking just at police killing rates isn't helpful enough unless you know if unarmed blacks (or armed but not reaching for their guns) are killed at a proportionally higher rate than unarmed whites.

Whites of course are killed more than any other race due to numbers. But what percentage of these killings were justified? There are obviously many, many police shootings that need to occur for the safety of the public and themselves. The motivation for the shooting is key, but hard to confirm in statistics.

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[Stoked]

Looking just at police killing rates isn't helpful enough unless you know if unarmed blacks (or armed but not reaching for their guns) are killed at a proportionally higher rate than unarmed whites.

Whites of course are killed more than any other race due to numbers. But what percentage of these killings were justified? There are obviously many, many police shootings that need to occur for the safety of the public and themselves. The motivation for the shooting is key, but hard to confirm in statistics.

Sent from my HTC6535LVW using JazzFanz mobile app

I'd think that is a fairly safe assumption per the higher rate blacks are killed based on population %.

 

[Red]

Here is an interesting new study. Bias against blacks by police when it comes to the use of force. But no bias by the police against blacks when it comes to shootings:

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/...e-use-of-force-but-not-in-shootings.html?_r=0

A new study confirms that black men and women are treated differently in the hands of law enforcement. They are more likely to be touched, handcuffed, pushed to the ground or pepper-sprayed by a police officer, even after accounting for how, where and when they encounter the police.

But when it comes to the most lethal form of force — police shootings — the study finds no racial bias.

“It is the most surprising result of my career,” said Roland G. Fryer Jr., the author of the study and a professor of economics at Harvard. The study examined more than a thousand shootings in 10 major police departments, in Texas, Florida and California.

 

[moevillini]

I have a feeling that a black person is more likely to talk **** to the cops or be defiant to the cops in interactions with them. I have a feeling that many black youth are taught from a very young age that the police are their enemy and to hate them.
Not saying that's 100% the problem but I bet it's a little part of the problem.

I think a more accurate way to explain it is that blacks have a higher rate of being stopped by the police or arrested (based on population distribution) so they may tend to be more suspicious in their interactions if they are stopped by law enforecment. It's a "chicken and egg" type of problem - - do they react as they do because they've had bad experiences or do they have bad experiences because of how they react?

My own opinion is that the cumulative effect of being treated as a "suspect" might lead to a particular response that seems hostile, at least in the minds of law enforcement. Also, if you're the police and you're thinking someone is a likely suspect, you're more apt to view their behavior as suspicious, and treat them as such in any interactions.


And having spent many years volunteering with a variety of programs with young black children in a couple of the poorest and most crime ridden parts of Chicago, I completely disagree with your statement that they are taught from a young age to hate the police and that the police are their enemy.
That may be a message that some older kids (12+) get from rap music and other sources, but that's certainly not something that young children are "taught" to believe.

 

[fishonjazz]

Looking just at police killing rates isn't helpful enough unless you know if unarmed blacks (or armed but not reaching for their guns) are killed at a proportionally higher rate than unarmed whites.

Whites of course are killed more than any other race due to numbers. But what percentage of these killings were justified? There are obviously many, many police shootings that need to occur for the safety of the public and themselves. The motivation for the shooting is key, but hard to confirm in statistics.

Sent from my HTC6535LVW using JazzFanz mobile app

I believe that more blacks are unjustly killed by cops. There is no doubt in my mind.
I also have no doubt in my mind that more blacks hate/fear cops and that can cause issues even with a cop who is not even a little bit racist.

I also believe that even though more blacks are unjustly killed by cops, there are some white people that are unjustly killed by cops. Why is there no media coverage for those people? Why no protests in the streets?

 

[fishonjazz]

I think a more accurate way to explain it is that blacks have a higher rate of being stopped by the police or arrested (based on population distribution) so they may tend to be more suspicious in their interactions if they are stopped by law enforecment. It's a "chicken and egg" type of problem - - do they react as they do because they've had bad experiences or do they have bad experiences because of how they react?

My own opinion is that the cumulative effect of being treated as a "suspect" might lead to a particular response that seems hostile, at least in the minds of law enforcement. Also, if you're the police and you're thinking someone is a likely suspect, you're more apt to view their behavior as suspicious, and treat them as such in any interactions.


And having spent many years volunteering with a variety of programs with young black children in a couple of the poorest and most crime ridden parts of Chicago, I completely disagree with your statement that they are taught from a young age to hate the police and that the police are their enemy.
That may be a message that some older kids (12+) get from rap music and other sources, but that's certainly not something that young children are "taught" to believe.

Good post. I do think many black youth are taught to hate the police though. Not only through music and media (though certainly they play a part) but simply because their mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, cousins, etc are always being harassed, arrested, etc.

If my friends and family were always getting arrested and harrassed by police as I was growing up then I'm certain I would have more hate for cops.
It's only natural.

And it's a chicken and egg thing for sure.

 

[JazzGal]

Here is an interesting new study. Bias against blacks by police when it comes to the use of force. But no bias by the police against blacks when it comes to shootings:

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/...e-use-of-force-but-not-in-shootings.html?_r=0

A new study confirms that black men and women are treated differently in the hands of law enforcement. They are more likely to be touched, handcuffed, pushed to the ground or pepper-sprayed by a police officer, even after accounting for how, where and when they encounter the police.

But when it comes to the most lethal form of force — police shootings — the study finds no racial bias.

“It is the most surprising result of my career,” said Roland G. Fryer Jr., the author of the study and a professor of economics at Harvard. The study examined more than a thousand shootings in 10 major police departments, in Texas, Florida and California.

Very interesting.

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[JazzGal]

From a friend of a friend:

"Just got back from a two-week Civil Rights tour of the South. If today's Americans think they would have sided with MLK, I recommend a visit to the Lorraine Motel in Memphis, where the black leader was assassinated. It is now an amazing Civil Rights museum that includes dramatic tv footage of the movement's marches and protests. You can see all the abuse, police brutality, speeches, etc against the marchers. Police opening fire hoses on peaceful protesters in a Birmingham park, including young children. The bulk of even moderate Americans all across the country opposed these efforts for racial equality. No matter where we live, we should all be ashamed of our attitudes and actions — then and now — or lack of actions. One quote from MLK's "Letter from a Birmingham jail" continues to ring in my head: "the white moderate, ...is more devoted to 'order' than to justice." Isn't that still the case?"

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[Stoked]

From a friend of a friend:

"Just got back from a two-week Civil Rights tour of the South. If today's Americans think they would have sided with MLK, I recommend a visit to the Lorraine Motel in Memphis, where the black leader was assassinated. It is now an amazing Civil Rights museum that includes dramatic tv footage of the movement's marches and protests. You can see all the abuse, police brutality, speeches, etc against the marchers. Police opening fire hoses on peaceful protesters in a Birmingham park, including young children. The bulk of even moderate Americans all across the country opposed these efforts for racial equality. No matter where we live, we should all be ashamed of our attitudes and actions — then and now — or lack of actions. One quote from MLK's "Letter from a Birmingham jail" continues to ring in my head: "the white moderate, ...is more devoted to 'order' than to justice." Isn't that still the case?"

Sent from my HTC6535LVW using JazzFanz mobile app

Very interesting quote. My response would be "Define justice and how you want to get to said justice".

 

[Boris]

Because generally speaking the police aren't shooting 12 yr old white boys with toy guns, choking 50 year old white men to death, pinning white dudes down and unloading 5 shots at point blank range. The level of aggression is much higher toward blacks than it is to whites. Anyone that refuses to see that there is a substantial racial component to these shootings is actively filtering out truth. Police are too trigger happy all around imo but clearly the problem of how the police interact with blacks is a problem of a different scale.

Do you always make things up like this?

 

[JazzGal]

Okay I get your reaction but I do not think you interpret Gulliani. He was mayor for a place that had high crime an he did a lot to solve it. Ask New Yorkers. All they care about in mayors is results. Not politics. Guilliani gave them reasonable, well thought out results.

Gulliani was not making point you are portraying. He was making the point that violence, an hence the deep seeded police actions, are the larger issue here. I agree with his sentiment entirely an wish we could solve this together.

Back to Rudy Giuliani's comments, this article saw it as I saw it:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/rudy-giuliani-black-kids-have-99percent-chance-of-killing-each-other/ar-BBu9EXi?ocid=iehp

Capping off his weekend of inflammatory comments after the Dallas police shooting, former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani said Sunday that black children have “a 99% chance” of killing each other — so they shouldn’t worry so much about police brutality.

He also dismissed Black Lives Matter — the group and the phrase itself — as “inherently racist” and “anti-American,” and accused the movement of calling for the murder of police officers.

Appearing on CBS’ “Face The Nation,” Giuliani had little to say about the deadly police shootings that sparked the Black Lives Matter movement and nationwide protests — including the one in Dallas that was ambushed by a cop killer.

Instead, he said it is up to the “blacks” to show respect to police.

“If you want to deal with this on the black side, you've got to teach your children to be respectful to the police, and you've got to teach your children that the real danger to them is not the police,” Giuliani said.

“The real danger to them, 99 out of 100 times, is other black kids who are going to kill them,” the Republican ex-mayor added, citing a statistic never shown in any research.

“That’s the way they’re gonna die.”

If he "were a black father," he added, he'd warn his son to "be very careful of those kids in the neighborhood and don't get involved with them because, son, there's a 99% chance they're going to kill you, not the police."

The closest estimate to Giuliani's nonsense numbers is the FBI's 2014 homicide data, which said black victims are killed by other black people 90% of the time. The rate of white-on-white homicide, the stats say, is 82%.

Giuliani's presidential candidate of choice, Donald Trump, last year tweeted the inaccurate claim that the black-on-black murder rate is 97%.

In his Sunday interview, Giuliani proposed no police reforms other than a “zero tolerance” policy toward “disrespect.”
As for the Black Lives Matter movement, he said its members “sing rap songs about killing police officers” and “yell it out at rallies.”

“When you say 'black lives matter,' that's inherently racist,” the ex-mayor said.

“Black lives matter, white lives matter, Asian lives matter, Hispanic lives matter. That’s anti-American and it’s racist.”

Giuliani did not immediately return messages from the Daily News.

His comments came just two days after he hammered similar talking points on MSNBC, saying African-Americans need to realize black kids are “the real danger.”

NYPD Commissioner Bill Bratton, who previously served under Giuliani, said Sunday that some of the former mayor's criticisms of Black Lives Matter are "appropriate."

But overall, he said, the mayor is missing the mark.

"There is no denying within the police profession, 800,000 of us, that we have racists, we have brutal people, we have criminals, cops who shouldn't be here," Bratton said on NBC News' "Face The Nation."

"But they do not represent the vast majority of American police."

He called policing "a shared responsibility" between cops and civilians, and said "everybody's voice needs to be heard."

Giuliani's two terms as mayor were marked by issues of police brutality identical to those being debated today.

During his tenure, between 1994 and 2001, NYPD officers shot and killed 160 suspects, according to department statistics.

That included 30 fatal shootings in 1996 — the highest of any year between 1991 and 2010. His mayoralty saw more than 10 deadly police shootings every year, though it also showed a drop from the David Dinkins and Ed Koch administrations, when there were often more than 20 fatal cop shootings annually.

Two of the most notorious shootings claimed the lives of two unarmed black men: Amadou Diallo and Patrick Dorismond.

Diallo, a 23-year-old immigrant from Guinea, was shot 19 times after he reached for his wallet during a police encounter in 1999. The four officers involved in the killing were charged with second-degree murder, but acquitted.

Dorismond, 26, was shot and killed during a scuffle with an undercover officer in 2000.

Giuliani himself faced intense backlash after he unsealed Dorismond's juvenile delinquency and said the victim was "no altar boy."

Dorismond's death was ruled an accident and the cop who shot him, Anthony Vasquez, was not indicted.