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Donald Trump is the 45th President of the United States.

Why do people have a problem with NAFTA?

Capitalism/free markets are bad?

If we renegotiate, we can get a better deal. I know with the fresh market for potatoes we've been trying to gain access to all of Mexico for the past 15-20 years and we haven't gotten anywhere. That's just one sector, I'm sure there's more. Let's not act like we can't improve the deal.
 
Why do people have a problem with NAFTA?

Capitalism/free markets are bad?

Sometimes they are.
I don't consider it freely traded when it promotes jobs to be exported to countries that don't adhere to the same rules such as hourly wages.

Prior to NAFTA we had a trade surplus with MX.
That surplus has turned into a $190B deficit with MX and Canada.. not to mention the loss of jobs and the debatably decline in product quality.
 
Keep in mind NAFTA shouldn't be viewed as a partisan issue.. as Trump tried to do by blaming Bill.

The agreement was Bush initiated but signed by Bill C.

It was also approved, almost evenly, in a bi-partisan passing.

Just wanted to be clear that I'm not pointing a finger... but just saying I don't like NAFTA.
 
Oh political guru [MENTION=848]dalamon[/MENTION], any commentary on the 100 day plan of Trump? How do his policies seem to you?
 
Well, here's how I see it.

We want to reduce illegal immigration? Provide opportunities in Mexico for people to earn money. Obviously wages are lower at the moment. But the more production happens there and the more affluence a small portion of workers gets leads to wages rising and people expecting a better standard of living. Eventually wages will be high enough that no Mexican would consider leaving their country to illegally enter ours so that they can have the economic opportunities that we are hoarding here.

If I believe that a business owner actually owns his/her business and it doesn't belong to the community, and that the jobs offered are offered freely and accepted freely than I believe that the business owner can offer those jobs in the U.S. or in Mexico or anywhere else, because it is his/her option to run their business however they see fit.

We don't own those jobs. We don't have a right to initiate force against that business owner and hold their business hostage here. If someone from the U.S. wants those jobs I think it's entirely fair to make them compete against hungry and poor humans elsewhere on the planet who need that job every bit as much the the U.S. citizen does.

If min wage is the problem then there is an easy solution. End the min wage.

If government benefits are the problem, end those benefits.

Obviously that isn't the world we live in. But I think we can handle allowing some of our wealth to spread a little bit north and south of here to make this world a better place for more people and to increase our security in the process.
 
The capitalists have turned protectionists overnight! What an amazing world!
 
Well, here's how I see it.

We want to reduce illegal immigration? Provide opportunities in Mexico for people to earn money. Obviously wages are lower at the moment. But the more production happens there and the more affluence a small portion of workers gets leads to wages rising and people expecting a better standard of living. Eventually wages will be high enough that no Mexican would consider leaving their country to illegally enter ours so that they can have the economic opportunities that we are hoarding here.

If I believe that a business owner actually owns his/her business and it doesn't belong to the community, and that the jobs offered are offered freely and accepted freely than I believe that the business owner can offer those jobs in the U.S. or in Mexico or anywhere else, because it is his/her option to run their business however they see fit.

We don't own those jobs. We don't have a right to initiate force against that business owner and hold their business hostage here. If someone from the U.S. wants those jobs I think it's entirely fair to make them compete against hungry and poor humans elsewhere on the planet who need that job every bit as much the the U.S. citizen does.

If min wage is the problem then there is an easy solution. End the min wage.

If government benefits are the problem, end those benefits.

Obviously that isn't the world we live in. But I think we can handle allowing some of our wealth to spread a little bit north and south of here to make this world a better place for more people and to increase our security in the process.

Improving across the board quality of life in Mexico would be a HUGE benefit to the US. It secures the border, ties Mexico to us as an ally, national security, wealth generation...

Mexico should be at or near the top of the list for priorities. Along with Cuba.

Things like Fast and Furious are a disgrace.
 
some of those policies are more left than anything Hillary had proposed.

But oh God, those environmental policies? A ****ing nightmare. A total ****ing nightmare. Scrap all the Pence ****, Trump doesn't deserve the presidency on that stuff alone.

Refugee **** is vague (we already vet-- what would make their vetting 'extreme'?) immigration stuff is wrong.
 
some of those policies are more left than anything Hillary had proposed.

But oh God, those environmental policies? A ****ing nightmare. A total ****ing nightmare. Scrap all the Pence ****, Trump doesn't deserve the presidency on that stuff alone.

Refugee **** is vague (we already vet-- what would make their vetting 'extreme'?) immigration stuff is wrong.

Pence is worse than Trump IMO. I guess he was necessary to secure the evangelical/crazy christian vote tho.
 
Really the only thing that worries is the environmental policies, but I guess that is just one of the things I place the most importance on.

Glad I didnt see any BS about making marijuana illegal in states that have legalized it.

If people really hate Trump though they should just focus on the next senate elections to get more D's up in there.
 
Well, here's how I see it.

We want to reduce illegal immigration? Provide opportunities in Mexico for people to earn money. Obviously wages are lower at the moment. But the more production happens there and the more affluence a small portion of workers gets leads to wages rising and people expecting a better standard of living. Eventually wages will be high enough that no Mexican would consider leaving their country to illegally enter ours so that they can have the economic opportunities that we are hoarding here.

If I believe that a business owner actually owns his/her business and it doesn't belong to the community, and that the jobs offered are offered freely and accepted freely than I believe that the business owner can offer those jobs in the U.S. or in Mexico or anywhere else, because it is his/her option to run their business however they see fit.

We don't own those jobs. We don't have a right to initiate force against that business owner and hold their business hostage here. If someone from the U.S. wants those jobs I think it's entirely fair to make them compete against hungry and poor humans elsewhere on the planet who need that job every bit as much the the U.S. citizen does.

If min wage is the problem then there is an easy solution. End the min wage.

If government benefits are the problem, end those benefits.

Obviously that isn't the world we live in. But I think we can handle allowing some of our wealth to spread a little bit north and south of here to make this world a better place for more people and to increase our security in the process.

The elephant in the room is corruption in the Mexican government and the control and violence of the drug cartels. Coming here for jobs is part of it, coming here to escape terrible situations is another nearly equally as large.
 
some of those policies are more left than anything Hillary had proposed.

That's the funny thing. Trump's trade policy is leftist populism through and through. And now many of the life-long capitalists are like "you know, maybe the free-market isn't great. Let's give protectionism a chance!".
 
Beyond scary... It's terrifying how environmental issues still aren't accepted as serious by a huge portion of country... We're going to get hundreds of millions people dead at a minimum.

In what timeline? Serious question. 10 years ago I can remember this discussion and often it was stated that within the next 10 years we would see mass evacuations environmental issues. Hasn't happened yet. I am curious what the timeline is for all this.

Here is an article about it even from Oct 12, 2005, over 11 years ago now. Didn't happen.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2005/oct/12/naturaldisasters.climatechange1"]https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2005/oct/12/naturaldisasters.climatechange1

Rising sea levels, desertification and shrinking freshwater supplies will create up to 50 million environmental refugees by the end of the decade, experts warn today.

For centuries people have moved due to natural disasters, whether of the wet or dry variety. It is normally called migration and it has been happening for all of human history. When the place you live becomes unlivable you find a new place to live.

Found this interesting too.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/erinca...ca-has-faced-far-worst-droughts/#459e37b65c3c

A senior hydrologist for California says the state’s ongoing drought will become more severe—at least in the San Joaquin River Valley—than any similar-length drought of the past century.

“With the forecast just made, this year is going to be the worst four-year sequence on the San Joaquin River group,” says Maury Roos, senior hydrologist for the Department of Water Resources, who retired as the state’s chief hydrologist but still works part time. Despite the dire declaration, California’s drought is far from the worst the U.S. has ever seen.

The Dust Bowl of the 1930s beats California’s current plight by a long shot, in terms of area covered and years of length. Spanning eight years in certain parts of the Great Plains, it was the worst American drought of the 20th century, causing mass migration westward. But even the Dust Bowl pales when compared to centuries past. Californians today are facing water rationing. Early European settlers and Native Americans disappeared entirely in certain regions in the face of devastating drought.


Absolutely no doubt we have to take care of the environment. But also of no doubt is that there is as much fear-mongering going on as actual science.
 
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Really the only thing that worries is the environmental policies, but I guess that is just one of the things I place the most importance on.

Glad I didnt see any BS about making marijuana illegal in states that have legalized it.

If people really hate Trump though they should just focus on the next senate elections to get more D's up in there.

What environmental policies worry you? I work in environmental enforcement and chicken with it's head off reactions like Dalamon makes has me chuckling. I took Eminence's response as satire.
 
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