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Could Our Education System Soon Look Like This?

I dont think that's the point.

School choice is so that people can send their kids to schools to learn what they believe in, and not feel like they are beimg indoctrinated by things they dont believe in.

This is sort of a double edge sword. On one hand people want the freedom to teach their kids what they want, but on the other hand it could be teaching them the wrong things. Who to say what is the truth? Liberals? Thats what liberals would have you believe. But that's dangerous for one side to demand their way be taught as the truth. Thats why it has to be freedom of choice, and let the best ideas win.

Yes, let's protect the people who don't want their kids to learn anything that doesn't clash with their limited, often religiously-based, beliefs, such as, say, actual science. Isn't that one of the whole purposs of education, to expand the minds and experiences of students? I don't get this desire by some to only be exposed to things they agree with. Where's the learning in that?
 
Public education is poop. Flush it.

Next Constitutional Amendment s/b separation of schools and State, abolish state-directed brainwashing.

Universal public education is one of the greatest leveling forces in the whole of human history that creates opportunities unpralleled for everyone (at least in principle) to particpate in society, including the economic spheres.

It is, moreover, absolutely essential to continued economic growth and prosperity. This is one area where conservative values should absolutely intersect. They might hate all things public sector, but in this case, it helps drive the private sector, particularly in an increasing info and tech based economy. If our kids aren't being educated, you can damn well bet that the Chinese kids will be, as well as the kids in other countries. Without universal public education, the US will become an economic has-been.

Are people really so dumb as Babe affects to be as to equate public eduction with brainwashing and to want to do away with it? Is this where we're coming to with conservatives in charge now? God help us if that's the case.
 
Yes, let's protect the people who don't want their kids to learn anything that doesn't clash with their limited, often religiously-based, beliefs, such as, say, actual science. Isn't that one of the whole purposs of education, to expand the minds and experiences of students? I don't get this desire by some to only be exposed to things they agree with. Where's the learning in that?

so you ar esyaing science and religion are in conflict?
 
so you ar esyaing science and religion are in conflict?

Yes. Take one of many examples. Religion: Earth is X thousands of years old (using the Bible as chronology of earth history). Science: Earth is billions of years old.

The fact that you even have to ask this indicates some serious default in critical thinking capacity.
 
Yes, let's protect the people who don't want their kids to learn anything that doesn't clash with their limited, often religiously-based, beliefs, such as, say, actual science. Isn't that one of the whole purposs of education, to expand the minds and experiences of students? I don't get this desire by some to only be exposed to things they agree with. Where's the learning in that?

hard pos rep.
 
Universal public education is one of the greatest leveling forces in the whole of human history that creates opportunities unpralleled for everyone (at least in principle) to particpate in society, including the economic spheres.

It is, moreover, absolutely essential to continued economic growth and prosperity. This is one area where conservative values should absolutely intersect. They might hate all things public sector, but in this case, it helps drive the private sector, particularly in an increasing info and tech based economy. If our kids aren't being educated, you can damn well bet that the Chinese kids will be, as well as the kids in other countries. Without universal public education, the US will become an economic has-been.

Are people really so dumb as Babe affects to be as to equate public eduction with brainwashing and to want to do away with it? Is this where we're coming to with conservatives in charge now? God help us if that's the case.

I hear you. But I worked in public education. In a couple of very different positions/perspectives. There's a helluva lot of it that should be torn up. There are massive, paradigmatic problems. It would be interesting to essay about why these paradigms were so productive at their moment in history; but paradigms don't stay consistently productive, and many of these ones are on their way out. IMO.
 
I asked two questions.

Now I have disdain for something.

Inferences and misinterpretations and unrelated labels are why no one wants to interact with you and why this will be the only one I give to you. Not even quoting the post 'cause it's not worth the effort.

would you have been offended if I inferred that you loved the caste system we have now?

Hollywood's significant folks, and others with all the right connections, shored up by very expensive, and on that criteria very exclusive, schools which help to establish one's youngsters in all the right circles.
 
Universal public education is one of the greatest leveling forces in the whole of human history that creates opportunities unpralleled for everyone (at least in principle) to particpate in society, including the economic spheres.

It is, moreover, absolutely essential to continued economic growth and prosperity. This is one area where conservative values should absolutely intersect. They might hate all things public sector, but in this case, it helps drive the private sector, particularly in an increasing info and tech based economy. If our kids aren't being educated, you can damn well bet that the Chinese kids will be, as well as the kids in other countries. Without universal public education, the US will become an economic has-been.

Are people really so dumb as Babe affects to be as to equate public eduction with brainwashing and to want to do away with it? Is this where we're coming to with conservatives in charge now? God help us if that's the case.

I grew up hearing people talk like this, and I wasted a lot of time trying to conform to the ideals you embrace. I have come to recognize the power of compulsory indoctrination and "religious" teaching in a closed social system you don't have the "right" to escape. And yes, JEJ, that's is my estimate of your product. You believe what you've been taught. Other than that, probably a nice guy.

Science has nothing to do with our ideals of society. Science, math, technology are neutral on that dimension, or should be. That's why every kind of philosophy of education more or less teaches the same on objective knowledge.... or should.... let's say.
 
I see a lot of public education bashing but very little fact to back up the opinions. I guess in modern-day America we are just supposed to accept rhetoric as fact.

Here are a few things to consider before bashing public education:

1. Educators don't decide on the 9 month schedule. School boards, who are elected by the public do. These people aren't educators. And when they've attempted year round school, they are attacked relentlessly by the public for "ruining" summer vacations and costing more money since cooling schools and bussing kids isn't free.

2. Politicians, especially at the state level control policies such standardized testing, grade promotion via age, and funding. If you hate the standardized testing or grade promotion cuz you ate and crapped for yet another year, blame your state legislature. One thing that would go a long way to fixing public education would be to hold kids accountable. If kids miss x number of days in a term, they are kicked out of the mainstream school and funneled into a special school. Same thing with kids who cannot maintain a 2.0 gpa or higher.

Instead we have kids missing 30+ times a term or getting a .03 gpa and still sticking with a kid who misses 1 day per term and is getting above a 3.0 gpa. The kid or their parents aren't ever held accountable. But the teacher and school sure are!

3. When comparing test scores to international peers, remember, we do not Dump the undesirables into a 2nd tier, like most Europeans do. So our test scores reflect the total student population. Whether it be genius kid who will soon be going to Harvard or Jose Sixpack who's been in the country for 6 days.

In Europe, they only report the scores of kids on a university tract.

One way that American public schools could significantly improve environments and test scores is if they went to a two tiered education tract. Where kids could be directed more to a trade school route. Instead, we treat all kids as if they're supposed to go to a university.

4. Lastly, our society in general is anti fact. Look at our political environment. It's a reflection upon of our society. We don't value education. We invest millions into high school football stadiums while kids read out of 50 year old textbooks. So rather than bash public education as if it's a dinosaur. Let's put the blame squarely where it belongs; a society that values Instagram, celebrities like Jimmy K, and sports rather than education.
 
As far as charters go, it's laughable. Just look at who supports them. Churches and billionaires. Churches like it because it's an easy money maker and allows them to indoctrinate. Rich people like them because it's an easy money maker, busts unions, and allows you to hire non-licensed teachers who are desperate to accept any job even without benefits.

Charters have proven to be disasters. And there's no way to fix that.

Look at Wisconsin, Florida, and Michigan to see how they e flopped. In most cases, showing as good or worse scores than the traditional public school. Just look at utah's school Grades and see how the majority of failing schools are charters.

https://datagateway.schools.utah.gov/Accountability/SchoolGrades/2016
 
"Jose Sixpack who's been here for 6 days"

And this guys a teacher? Pretty classy bro, pretty classy.

I thought you right wing snowflakes would appreciate a dose of non-pc language. Sorry for making you feel uncomfortable. Here, I'll use my teacher PC language so as to not offend you. After all, this is a safe place.

"In American public schools, we deal with the most diverse student population in the world. While most systems educate homogeneous populations, we teach fluent white English speakers whose ancestors came here on the mayflower to Latino students who have only lived here for six days and whose English language skills are still developing. We are expected to educate the brilliant, headed to ivy league schools. And expected to make something out of a student from a broken home, limited resources, and very little talent."

Feel better now cupcake? Sheesh. Sorry that you felt offended. After all, this is a sports forum and everything...

Now after all that drama, wha specifically did you disagree with in my post(s)?
 
Yes. Take one of many examples. Religion: Earth is X thousands of years old (using the Bible as chronology of earth history). Science: Earth is billions of years old.

The fact that you even have to ask this indicates some serious default in critical thinking capacity.

yes there is something wrong with my critical thinking! /s

oh really the bible says earth is 7000 thousands years ago? not the translation I USE and is way more accurate than most western bibles use. every single translation that uses the earth was created in 7 days is WRONG! nowhere does it SAY earth was created in 7 days in the right translation. science and religion are incompatible, only because peoples wrong translation of the old testament!

to me science and religion are not in conflict THEY LINE up. but hey guess you're not ready to be red pilled. so keep believing indoctrination that is spreading divisiveness in religion vs science.
 
As far as charters go, it's laughable. Just look at who supports them. Churches and billionaires. Churches like it because it's an easy money maker and allows them to indoctrinate. Rich people like them because it's an easy money maker, busts unions, and allows you to hire non-licensed teachers who are desperate to accept any job even without benefits.

Charters have proven to be disasters. And there's no way to fix that.

Look at Wisconsin, Florida, and Michigan to see how they e flopped. In most cases, showing as good or worse scores than the traditional public school. Just look at utah's school Grades and see how the majority of failing schools are charters.

https://datagateway.schools.utah.gov/Accountability/SchoolGrades/2016

Well, I should give you, Naos and JEJ some credit for some good points. Yes, my stand is rhetorical in some extreme for those who haven't spent any time thinking that way. When I was a kid I had some very good teachers in the public school system. One man, who was in his last year of teaching at age oh 65, who lived a block down the street from me and knew my family..... oh did I say "schoolteacher family", as in dozens of school teachers uncles aunts grandparents bros and sisters and cousings.... did a very great thing.

I don't think the system then would have approved, much less now. He lived next door to my fifth grade teacher but taught in another school. I was a failing student who did no homework, looked out the window all day, and maybe bothered some girls a little just being there. At least one gaggle of girls appointed themselves to come as a bunch and just tell me they thought I was stupid. I didn't care.

But these teachers conspired to do something about me. They moved me to Ken Cannon's sixth grade class for the next year. Ken Cannon the first day announced that I was a transfer and that I was a great student. He deliberately flattered me, and encouraged me saying I could be the best student in the class if I studied. He gave me a "special" desk where I could keep my books, and invited me to just stay there after school and read my assignments or whatever, just please make sure I locked the door when I left. He set quiz contests like a game show on every subject where he announced I was the likely winner because I was so smart and did my homework.

Well I fell for it. I won the contests and all the cute girls made eyes at me.

In the next year, Jr. High back then, the grade schools combined and whden the kids from the old school saw me come into the advanced placement classes, they laughed and called me both "stupid" and "lost".

One day the math teacher gave a big test, the class was having an obvious struggle with it. I was done in 15 minutes and didn't see the sense of sitting there. I took my test up to the teacher and turned it in, and left while some snickered.

OK, so with the results the teach announced that I had gotten a perfect score. Those poor old school kids protested with an accusation, saying I had been the first one done, too, inferring obviously that the class idiot had cheated.

Look, folks, public education should not be the glue of society. The government should not have a heavy thumb on public social conditioning. We don't need school teachers making political objectives important in their teaching. Our founders wanted to foster education, but they all had private, homeschool professional teachers if they could afford it. They knew the value of the basic skills and knew the backwoods folks wouldn't be able to afford to hire that kind. No way did they intend to establish a government charged with guiding citizens in matters of religion or statism of any kind.

The good people in the education system are huge influences for good in society, no doubt.

But the system is obsolete, and we can achieve all the positive results more effectively with technology sans a bunch of bureaucrats who imagine their political views should be standard.
 
Look, folks, public education should not be the glue of society. The government should not have a heavy thumb on public social conditioning. We don't need school teachers making political objectives important in their teaching. Our founders wanted to foster education, but they all had private, homeschool professional teachers if they could afford it. They knew the value of the basic skills and knew the backwoods folks wouldn't be able to afford to hire that kind. No way did they intend to establish a government charged with guiding citizens in matters of religion or statism of any kind.

The good people in the education system are huge influences for good in society, no doubt.

But the system is obsolete, and we can achieve all the positive results more effectively with technology sans a bunch of bureaucrats who imagine their political views should be standard.

What do you suggest to be the "glue" then? Or just no glue at all?
 
American notions of individual rights, universal rights, respect for others, civil society.

What do you suggest to be the "glue" then? Or just no glue at all?
I know some causes seem to demand government action, and there are lots of good ideas or ideals a lot of smart, talented, professional experts. . . Believe we must get in place ASAP.

But no, the really good ones can be done on their merits, not on panic.

Education is a good example. Some teacher orbs really want tight central control on a model believed to be essential worldwide. I think local control is better because it will by definition involve creativity on a wide basis. More people will try more ideas, do innovative things. The good will be spread out on merit.
 
The fact that you even have to ask this indicates some serious default in critical thinking capacity.

You do realize who you are talking to right?
 
Well this just broke:

https://www.cnn.com/2017/02/01/poli...ucation-secretary-nominee/index.html?adkey=bn

2 GOP Senators just announced that they will not vote for DeVos to be Sec. of Edu. She could still get in though even if every D Senator voted no. That would be a 50/50 split and it would come down to the VPs vote. I'm willing to bet that Pence would vote "yes".

Remember that only 51 is needed now.

GOP Defectors On Betsy Devos Are Recipients of Donations From Teachers Unions

thats right those R's have the teachers interest in mind.


thats why government should stay out of education.
education is about the kids not the teachers
 
thats right those R's have the teachers interest in mind.


thats why government should stay out of education.
education is about the kids not the teachers

Teachers are an integral part of education. Their voices should absolutely be heard.

That's like saying that law enforcement isn't about cops so we should ignore their voice.

Come on...
 
Teachers are an integral part of education. Their voices should absolutely be heard.

That's like saying that law enforcement isn't about cops so we should ignore their voice.

Come on...

sorry i meant unions interest. but first should come the childrens education.

if the gov is not involved in education it is something private. you know what comes first? the interest of the people paying them aka the parents and children.

but if the governemtn is doing the interest of government, unions and all other DUBIOUS organization comes first
 
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