What did Trump know, and When did he know it?

[Red]

Another Trump thread started by Red? Hmmm...

Yeah, it occurred to me after that it might have been better to just add the latest to my "Is Russia helping Trump?" thread, from July of last year:

https://jazzfanz.com/showthread.php?52108-Is-Russia-Helping-Trump

I said at the time, and still feel the Russian angle was the most important aspect of the campaign. Or at least it seemed likely that history would judge that to be the case.

All I want to know is what's up with the To Russia With Love narrative adopted by and pushed by Trump from the start. I don't for one minute think it had anything to do with foreign policy philosophy by Trump. I do believe it had everything to do with his needs.

 

[Red]

Who cares.

Hillary=Pizza Gate=Lots worse

You've been listening to Mike Flynn and his son too much....

 

[Red]

The leaks from this White House has been more like open the floodgates, then drip, drip, drip. In fact Spicer yesterday wanted to make the leaks the real story here, as did Trump in one of his tweets. In any event, the leaks have been derailing the best laid plans...

"But here’s the important part: It turns out it wasn’t the lying that got him fired; it’s that his lying leaked to the press. The Washington Post reported that the acting attorney general told the White House weeks ago that transcripts showed Flynn likely misled administration officials. It wasn’t until the public found out he lied—based on a torrent of leaks from inside the administration in the past week—that Flynn was forced out.

The Flynn episode is just the latest and most high-profile case in which the Trump administration has been forced to reverse course because of leaks to journalists. The New York Times reported on Sunday night that “Defense Secretary Jim Mattis was exploring whether the Navy could intercept and board an Iranian ship to look for contraband weapons possibly headed to Houthi fighters in Yemen,” a policy which many people would consider both incredibly dangerous and potentially illegal—and could have been considered an act of war.

But the Times reported that “Mr. Mattis ultimately decided to set the operation aside, at least for now. White House officials said that was because news of the impending operation leaked.” Whoever leaked those plans was likely committing a crime, but also potentially staved off a huge international controversy that could have led to yet another military incursion in the Middle East."

https://www.cjr.org/covering_trump/media_cnn_trump_fake_news.php

 

[Red]

"Nothing sums up the Trump administration's dysfunction more than what happened this past weekend, when Trump and Prime Minister Abe of Japan were having dinner at Mar-a-Lago after North Korea conducted a ballistic-missile test. Did the Trump team retire to a secure location to deal with how best to respond? Nope. They worked things out right in front of a dining room full of rich people and treated them to dinner and live music. Not only do we have a careless administration that is failing to treat matters of national security with their due gravity, we also have those people answering to a guy who was probably disappointed the "nuclear football" wasn't an actual football."

"That show seemed to be a parody of The West Wing, with the general premise being "What if all the characters were unqualified for their jobs?" And as if that weren't bad enough, Trump reportedly used his phone's flashlight to read some documents in front of everyone. Now, I know what you're thinking. "Guys, what's the big deal? I use my phone's flashlight all the time." Well, the big deal is your phone's flashlight is also your camera's flash, which means anything you point it at, you're also pointing a camera at. And so while your phone's flashlight is perfect for finding that great pair of sweatpants that somehow disappeared under your bed months ago, it's not a great idea for our president to LITERALLY point an Internet-connected camera at national-security documents. It's just lucky for us that there aren't any foreign governments that want to use hacking to destabilize America, because that would be bad."

https://www.gq.com/story/donald-trumps-national-security-disaster

I get a kick out of all this. Flynn led the "Lock her up" chant at the convention. His son led the Pizzagate farce. Trump harped on the Clinton private email server every chance he got. And this is how he ensures security when it's his watch.

But, seriously, I need to see if I can go a whole week without starting another Trump thread. Just the Tip is right. Trump occupies my every day, 7 days of the week. But, in fairness, I did work as an historian for part of my life. And these are the most riveting days of American history that I have lived through in my 70 years. By far. So I have not taken my eyes off it for one day. It may yet cost me my marriage even. Time will tell....

 

[fishonjazz]

The leaks from this White House has been more like open the floodgates, then drip, drip, drip. In fact Spicer yesterday wanted to make the leaks the real story here, as did Trump in one of his tweets. In any event, the leaks have been derailing the best laid plans...

"But here’s the important part: It turns out it wasn’t the lying that got him fired; it’s that his lying leaked to the press. The Washington Post reported that the acting attorney general told the White House weeks ago that transcripts showed Flynn likely misled administration officials. It wasn’t until the public found out he lied—based on a torrent of leaks from inside the administration in the past week—that Flynn was forced out.

The Flynn episode is just the latest and most high-profile case in which the Trump administration has been forced to reverse course because of leaks to journalists. The New York Times reported on Sunday night that “Defense Secretary Jim Mattis was exploring whether the Navy could intercept and board an Iranian ship to look for contraband weapons possibly headed to Houthi fighters in Yemen,” a policy which many people would consider both incredibly dangerous and potentially illegal—and could have been considered an act of war.

But the Times reported that “Mr. Mattis ultimately decided to set the operation aside, at least for now. White House officials said that was because news of the impending operation leaked.” Whoever leaked those plans was likely committing a crime, but also potentially staved off a huge international controversy that could have led to yet another military incursion in the Middle East."

https://www.cjr.org/covering_trump/media_cnn_trump_fake_news.php

"Nothing sums up the Trump administration's dysfunction more than what happened this past weekend, when Trump and Prime Minister Abe of Japan were having dinner at Mar-a-Lago after North Korea conducted a ballistic-missile test. Did the Trump team retire to a secure location to deal with how best to respond? Nope. They worked things out right in front of a dining room full of rich people and treated them to dinner and live music. Not only do we have a careless administration that is failing to treat matters of national security with their due gravity, we also have those people answering to a guy who was probably disappointed the "nuclear football" wasn't an actual football."

"That show seemed to be a parody of The West Wing, with the general premise being "What if all the characters were unqualified for their jobs?" And as if that weren't bad enough, Trump reportedly used his phone's flashlight to read some documents in front of everyone. Now, I know what you're thinking. "Guys, what's the big deal? I use my phone's flashlight all the time." Well, the big deal is your phone's flashlight is also your camera's flash, which means anything you point it at, you're also pointing a camera at. And so while your phone's flashlight is perfect for finding that great pair of sweatpants that somehow disappeared under your bed months ago, it's not a great idea for our president to LITERALLY point an Internet-connected camera at national-security documents. It's just lucky for us that there aren't any foreign governments that want to use hacking to destabilize America, because that would be bad."

https://www.gq.com/story/donald-trumps-national-security-disaster

I get a kick out of all this. Flynn led the "Lock her up" chant at the convention. His son led the Pizzagate farce. Trump harped on the Clinton private email server every chance he got. And this is how he ensures security when it's his watch.

But, seriously, I need to see if I can go a whole week without starting another Trump thread. Just the Tip is right. Trump occupies my every day, 7 days of the week. But, in fairness, I did work as an historian for part of my life. And these are the most riveting days of American history that I have lived through in my 70 years. By far. So I have not taken my eyes off it for one day. It may yet cost me my marriage even. Time will tell....

Keep it up Red.
I enjoy the information you share. **** the haters.

 

[Red]

He knows when you've been sleeping, he knows when you're awake, he knows that he's all you think about, day and night.

I want to address your comments briefly, because you've brought me up as a subject prior to this, when you suggested I'm very fond of complaining.

You don't know me from Adam, nor do I know you. I am a current events junkie. It probably started before high school, but I can remember in high school Civics class, we were assigned to read the New York Times every day. I loved it. Current Events. The first thing I do in the morning is browse the news. If I were still working, that would still be the case, but there would be less time spent at it then these days. Because it's pretty much how I spend my days if I am not otherwise engaged in the everyday events of life that we all must deal with. I end my days going over, you guessed it, current events.

I never anticipated spending my senior years, or at least these past couple of years, focused on Donald J. Trump. But, the fact is the most pressing, engrossing, compelling element in domestic current events at this time in my life is one Donald J. Trump. As a student of History since childhood, I immediately recognized he was a demagogue. That was bound to set off alarm bells for someone like myself, and knowing what he was, and what that might represent, has to a large degree caused me to allow this aspect of current events to take over my daily life. That was my choice. I do have some degree of self awareness. By which I mean I am very much aware of having to pay a price for this single mindedness. I am paying a price. I hope it isn't too steep a price, but that remains to be seen.

I will never apologize to someone like yourself. I have lived a great deal of American history as one of the early baby boomers, born not long after my father returned from the Pacific Theater of WWII. And I can honestly say I've followed the history I've witnessed like the current events junkie I am. I always try to plug current events into a historical perspective. I've spent my entire life simply trying to understand the time and place in which I live. And right now, that time and place is dominated by the election of Donald J. Trump. I have never seen anything quite like this in all the American history I've witnessed up to this point.

I have never regarded my posts here as complaints at all. That's how you see them. I see myself as providing a perspective that has been hard won. Has there ever been a time in just the past year when a Trump thread was not on the front page of this section of this forum? They have not all been threads that I initiated. The "alternative facts" thread, mine. The "Is Russia helping Trump?" thread, mine. This thread, and I believe one other. 4 threads started by me involving Trump in the past year. And, in each and every case, simply an effort to educate others with my own point of view. If my point of view existed in complete isolation, and was not in fact shared by millions of Americans, then maybe I could be called a nut case. I'm not a nut case. For every link I've posted, and I've done that a great deal, I've probably read 20 articles that day before choosing one or more that I felt offered meaningful insight. Have not others done the same with differing points of view?

 

[RandyForRubio]

Buddy, learn how to laugh a little.

 

[Stoked]

I want to address your comments briefly, because you've brought me up as a subject prior to this, when you suggested I'm very fond of complaining.

You don't know me from Adam, nor do I know you. I am a current events junkie. It probably started before high school, but I can remember in high school Civics class, we were assigned to read the New York Times every day. I loved it. Current Events. The first thing I do in the morning is browse the news. If I were still working, that would still be the case, but there would be less time spent at it then these days. Because it's pretty much how I spend my days if I am not otherwise engaged in the everyday events of life that we all must deal with. I end my days going over, you guessed it, current events.

I never anticipated spending my senior years, or at least these past couple of years, focused on Donald J. Trump. But, the fact is the most pressing, engrossing, compelling element in domestic current events at this time in my life is one Donald J. Trump. As a student of History since childhood, I immediately recognized he was a demagogue. That was bound to set off alarm bells for someone like myself, and knowing what he was, and what that might represent, has to a large degree caused me to allow this aspect of current events to take over my daily life. That was my choice. I do have some degree of self awareness. By which I mean I am very much aware of having to pay a price for this single mindedness. I am paying a price. I hope it isn't too steep a price, but that remains to be seen.

I will never apologize to someone like yourself. I have lived a great deal of American history as one of the early baby boomers, born not long after my father returned from the Pacific Theater of WWII. And I can honestly say I've followed the history I've witnessed like the current events junkie I am. I always try to plug current events into a historical perspective. I've spent my entire life simply trying to understand the time and place in which I live. And right now, that time and place is dominated by the election of Donald J. Trump. I have never seen anything quite like this in all the American history I've witnessed up to this point.

I have never regarded my posts here as complaints at all. That's how you see them. I see myself as providing a perspective that has been hard won. Has there ever been a time in just the past year when a Trump thread was not on the front page of this section of this forum? They have not all been threads that I initiated. The "alternative facts" thread, mine. The "Is Russia helping Trump?" thread, mine. This thread, and I believe one other. 4 threads started by me involving Trump in the past year. And, in each and every case, simply an effort to educate others with my own point of view. If my point of view existed in complete isolation, and was not in fact shared by millions of Americans, then maybe I could be called a nut case. I'm not a nut case. For every link I've posted, and I've done that a great deal, I've probably read 20 articles that day before choosing one or more that I felt offered meaningful insight. Have not others done the same with differing points of view?

??? This doesn't seem to fit. If you know nothing about him then why allude to "someone like yourself"?

Glad you provide your perspective, continue to do so. But his comment was clearly a joke. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[NAOS]

I want to address your comments briefly, because you've brought me up as a subject prior to this, when you suggested I'm very fond of complaining.

You don't know me from Adam, nor do I know you. I am a current events junkie. It probably started before high school, but I can remember in high school Civics class, we were assigned to read the New York Times every day. I loved it. Current Events. The first thing I do in the morning is browse the news. If I were still working, that would still be the case, but there would be less time spent at it then these days. Because it's pretty much how I spend my days if I am not otherwise engaged in the everyday events of life that we all must deal with. I end my days going over, you guessed it, current events.

I never anticipated spending my senior years, or at least these past couple of years, focused on Donald J. Trump. But, the fact is the most pressing, engrossing, compelling element in domestic current events at this time in my life is one Donald J. Trump. As a student of History since childhood, I immediately recognized he was a demagogue. That was bound to set off alarm bells for someone like myself, and knowing what he was, and what that might represent, has to a large degree caused me to allow this aspect of current events to take over my daily life. That was my choice. I do have some degree of self awareness. By which I mean I am very much aware of having to pay a price for this single mindedness. I am paying a price. I hope it isn't too steep a price, but that remains to be seen.

I will never apologize to someone like yourself. I have lived a great deal of American history as one of the early baby boomers, born not long after my father returned from the Pacific Theater of WWII. And I can honestly say I've followed the history I've witnessed like the current events junkie I am. I always try to plug current events into a historical perspective. I've spent my entire life simply trying to understand the time and place in which I live. And right now, that time and place is dominated by the election of Donald J. Trump. I have never seen anything quite like this in all the American history I've witnessed up to this point.

I have never regarded my posts here as complaints at all. That's how you see them. I see myself as providing a perspective that has been hard won. Has there ever been a time in just the past year when a Trump thread was not on the front page of this section of this forum? They have not all been threads that I initiated. The "alternative facts" thread, mine. The "Is Russia helping Trump?" thread, mine. This thread, and I believe one other. 4 threads started by me involving Trump in the past year. And, in each and every case, simply an effort to educate others with my own point of view. If my point of view existed in complete isolation, and was not in fact shared by millions of Americans, then maybe I could be called a nut case. I'm not a nut case. For every link I've posted, and I've done that a great deal, I've probably read 20 articles that day before choosing one or more that I felt offered meaningful insight. Have not others done the same with differing points of view?

please don't get wedges driven between you and loved ones over this. From my perspective, that's putting priorities in the wrong order. I feel the rock-and-hard-place feelings, though. And the compulsions one feels in these dazes.

 

[NAOS]

please don't get wedges driven between you and loved ones over this. From my perspective, that's putting priorities in the wrong order. I feel the rock-and-hard-place feelings, though. And the compulsions one feels in these dazes.

Stoked, can you interpret this post for us? I don't know what we'd do around here without you telling us what stuff means. tia.

 

[Stoked]

Stoked, can you interpret this post for us? I don't know what we'd do around here without you telling us what stuff means. tia.

Go be petty and boorish elsewhere. Your games don't engage me.

 

[Dr. Jones]

OP..
I respect you, I do, really.. but you're reaching, which is fine, but you're doing it more than healthy.

Kiss your wife and re-take a hobby.

 

[Red]

??? This doesn't seem to fit. If you know nothing about him then why allude to "someone like yourself"?

Glad you provide your perspective, continue to do so. But his comment was clearly a joke. Nothing more, nothing less.

OK, in fact, after the fact, I felt the same way. I do not know the guy at all, and I let that personal jab slip through anyway, which was not right. What I should have said is "I won't apologize to you or anyone else". I'm not a bad guy and in fact I beat up on myself more then anyone else ever could. Thanks for pointing that out. It was in fact bothering me after I posted that comment.

 

[Red]

please don't get wedges driven between you and loved ones over this. From my perspective, that's putting priorities in the wrong order. I feel the rock-and-hard-place feelings, though. And the compulsions one feels in these dazes.

Yep, things have in fact become almost toxic between my wife and myself. It's extremely difficult right now. I am experiencing the civil war besetting the nation within my own family. The problem is things are said that are very difficult to just forget. And when I spoke of "paying a price" for my single mindedness, that's exactly what I'm talking about. That, and just the effect on myself in terms of stress, etc. Anyway, I hear you. We can't even watch the news in the same room anymore. It really does hurt. My wife thinks I'm a know-it-all that has to be right at all times, and she refuses to discuss our differences at all. Women can be extremely frustrating. It's very hard on me knowing my partner simply does not feel as I do about something whose importance I have raised to such a high level. The only thing I can come up with is I need to know both sides, and this is how it's being brought home for me. My wife has taken on the role of the opposition, and this is how I will learn exactly how much my country is at war with itself. By experiencing it right here every single day.

 

[fishonjazz]

Yep, things have in fact become almost toxic between my wife and myself. It's extremely difficult right now. I am experiencing the civil war besetting the nation within my own family. The problem is things are said that are very difficult to just forget. And when I spoke of "paying a price" for my single mindedness, that's exactly what I'm talking about. That, and just the effect on myself in terms of stress, etc. Anyway, I hear you. We can't even watch the news in the same room anymore. It really does hurt. My wife thinks I'm a know-it-all that has to be right at all times, and she refuses to discuss our differences at all. Women can be extremely frustrating. It's very hard on me knowing my partner simply does not feel as I do about something whose importance I have raised to such a high level. The only thing I can come up with is I need to know both sides, and this is how it's being brought home for me. My wife has taken on the role of the opposition, and this is how I will learn exactly how much my country is at war with itself. By experiencing it right here every single day.

Damn, that sucks.
Lucky for me my wife recognizes trump for the douche he is so we don't have that problem.

 

[Stoked]

Yep, things have in fact become almost toxic between my wife and myself. It's extremely difficult right now. I am experiencing the civil war besetting the nation within my own family. The problem is things are said that are very difficult to just forget. And when I spoke of "paying a price" for my single mindedness, that's exactly what I'm talking about. That, and just the effect on myself in terms of stress, etc. Anyway, I hear you. We can't even watch the news in the same room anymore. It really does hurt. My wife thinks I'm a know-it-all that has to be right at all times, and she refuses to discuss our differences at all. Women can be extremely frustrating. It's very hard on me knowing my partner simply does not feel as I do about something whose importance I have raised to such a high level. The only thing I can come up with is I need to know both sides, and this is how it's being brought home for me. My wife has taken on the role of the opposition, and this is how I will learn exactly how much my country is at war with itself. By experiencing it right here every single day.

That's rough man. But she is still your wife and all the reasons you fell in love with her are most likely still there. Good luck

 

[NAOS]

Yep, things have in fact become almost toxic between my wife and myself. It's extremely difficult right now. I am experiencing the civil war besetting the nation within my own family. The problem is things are said that are very difficult to just forget. And when I spoke of "paying a price" for my single mindedness, that's exactly what I'm talking about. That, and just the effect on myself in terms of stress, etc. Anyway, I hear you. We can't even watch the news in the same room anymore. It really does hurt. My wife thinks I'm a know-it-all that has to be right at all times, and she refuses to discuss our differences at all. Women can be extremely frustrating. It's very hard on me knowing my partner simply does not feel as I do about something whose importance I have raised to such a high level. The only thing I can come up with is I need to know both sides, and this is how it's being brought home for me. My wife has taken on the role of the opposition, and this is how I will learn exactly how much my country is at war with itself. By experiencing it right here every single day.

Yesterday, after reading your posts, I thought about a passage from the IChing. I'll reproduce part of it here. It might sound funny (and Westerners have certainly misread yin-yang kinds of things pretty grossly), but I've found this book to be pretty thought-provoking if you read it like you'd watch a David Lynch film, i.e. let it strike you in the most earnest place (and don't let it be ironical, etc):

The power of the dark is ascending. The light retreats to security, so that the dark cannot encroach upon it. This retreat is a matter not of man's will but of natural law. Therefore in this case withdrawal is proper; it is the correct way to behave in order not to exhaust one's forces.

...

Conditions are such that the hostile forces favored by the time are advancing. In this case retreat is the right course, and it is through retreat that success is achieved. But success consists in being able to carry out the retreat correctly. Retreat is not to be confused with flight. Flight means saving oneself under any circumstances, whereas retreat is a sign of strength. We must be careful not to miss the right moment while we are in full possession of power and position. Then we shall be able to interpret the signs of the time before it is too late and to prepare for provisional retreat instead of being drawn in a desperate life-and-death struggle. Thus we do not simply abandon the field to the opponent; we make it difficult for him to advance by showing perseverance in single acts of resistance. In this way we prepare, while retreating, for the counter-movement. Understand the laws of constructive retreat of this sort is not easy. The meaning that lies hidden in such a time is important.

The moutain rises up under heaven, but owing to its nature it finally comes to a stop. Heaven on the other hand retreats upward before it into the distances and remains out of reach. This symbolizes the behavior of the superior man toward a climbing inferior; he retreats into his own thoughts as the inferior man comes forward. He does not hate him, for hatred is a form of subjective involvement by which we are bound to the hated object. The superior man shows strength (heaven) in that he brings the inferior man to a standstill (mountain) by his dignified reserve.

Wisdom that has lasted thousands of years.

 

[Red]

Buddy, learn how to laugh a little.

Thanks. It's not the first time someone has offered that advice. It's a lesson I should heed more often, I'm sure.

 

[Dr. Jones]

Yep, things have in fact become almost toxic between my wife and myself. It's extremely difficult right now. I am experiencing the civil war besetting the nation within my own family. The problem is things are said that are very difficult to just forget. And when I spoke of "paying a price" for my single mindedness, that's exactly what I'm talking about. That, and just the effect on myself in terms of stress, etc. Anyway, I hear you. We can't even watch the news in the same room anymore. It really does hurt. My wife thinks I'm a know-it-all that has to be right at all times, and she refuses to discuss our differences at all. Women can be extremely frustrating. It's very hard on me knowing my partner simply does not feel as I do about something whose importance I have raised to such a high level. The only thing I can come up with is I need to know both sides, and this is how it's being brought home for me. My wife has taken on the role of the opposition, and this is how I will learn exactly how much my country is at war with itself. By experiencing it right here every single day.

You're both being stupid.
Concentrate on each other and things you can affect.
This too shall pass and you're letting it be a much bigger deal than it really is or you want it to be.

 

[Red]

Yesterday, after reading your posts, I thought about a passage from the IChing. I'll reproduce part of it here. It might sound funny (and Westerners have certainly misread yin-yang kinds of things pretty grossly), but I've found this book to be pretty thought-provoking if you read it like you'd watch a David Lynch film, i.e. let it strike you in the most earnest place (and don't let it be ironical, etc):


Wisdom that has lasted thousands of years.

Thanks. I've owned a copy of the Richard Wilhelm translation since the late 60's. Carl Jung introduced me to the I Ching. Not personally, but through his interest in and study of synchronicity. I've often turned to it over the years. It's an amazing book, and I agree with your opinion.