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Trumpcare makes things worse

Used to be.....1930s to 1960s.... there were plenty of church-run charitable hospitals. In Salt Lake we had Primary Childrens, Holy Cross, St. Marks, and Jordan Valley. In most moderately substantial rural areas we had "community hospitals" which got guv grants for construction, equipment, etc. All these gave care without stint to those who couldn't pay, and received donated labor from physicians, plus tax-credited private donations. Lots of folks like my dad got little plaques on the hospital hallway walls for giving money.

Then, because of litigious culture and other economic factors, most of these were privatized and sucked into some corporate outfit.

A "Free Market" is essential to all human choices. You need alternatives to make a choice about.

I know the ideals of social justice loom large in some minds, but having a choice is essential for a human being to pursue happiness, one of those ideals our founders mentioned as worth fighting for.

Milton Friedman was a pretty good economist, one of the truly great. He reasoned that whatever we subsidize gets more expensive. More dollars chasing a limited provider pool's services. We give kids college grants/loans, and give colleges grants and funding of any kind, and they just keep building buildings, hiring more soft-shoe intellectuals who have questionable exspertise, and they peddle their tin-foil philosophies all day long, and the kids eat it up, and are stunted for life, believing they know stuff that isn't so. Tuitions rise, management perks and salaries rise, and nobody questions anything.... hence, no true education takes place.

Health care is no different. We need a system where people have a choice and don't have to participate in something that's not worthwhile, or that doesn't serve the need.

Despite all the regulations our health professionals have to deal with, there has until now been enough incentive for efficiency and improved care that we have a better system than anywhere on earth, Europe included.

control of your own body, in personal matters and including health and dental care, is a fundamental human right. No one else should be meddling with you on that turf. I've figured you for a dentist, green. You have a choice, go free and find a need, and address that need, and prosper for doing it..... or sit back and be part of the machinery that grinds out commonplace if not incompetent care. It might not be a simple either/or choice, I'm sure a lot of providers conscientiously follow the book and do the standard care in pretty good skill or high levels of actually caring.... but what moves the needle in technology is the effort to challenge current standards and equipment and do better.

That stuff about the uber-rich still applies under guv-run care for the lower humanoids. While we go to the corral to be castrated, they go to their high-rise docs for transhuman treatments/implants/stem cell injections/.... everything that no ordinary subject of guv healthcare could never hope for.

In terms you might be familiar with, we get our old teeth pulled and replaced with plastic dentures, they get the gold fillings.....well, whatever there is that can be done... . .

The Reagan Revolution significantly changed health care in this nation. Small nonprofit hospitals gave way to large for profit corporate conglomerates. In some respects, efficiency was improved. In many respects however, it has led to severe malpractice (in one case a few years back, a nurse known for poisoning patients was passed along from hospital to hospital because the corporate entity did not want to admit malpractice), decline in quality, and a corporate for profit atmosphere that has really led to patients getting the short end of the stick.

Until America is willing to address the elephant in the room, FOR PROFIT health insurance, nothing will change.

As long as the focus is on paying shareholders dividends and not what's best for the American patient, we will continue to see premiums rise for businesses and customers.
 
This is where this fear of the government is completely irrational. There are instances where government does some amazing things. Long distance phone calling is one. Price setting in medicine is another.

Government is a tool and to ignore it is foolish. To overuse it is foolish.

You're right.

But here's the misconception. Most Americans think that there are only two systems of health care out there. For profit insurance and socialized medicine.

They ignore the other systems, like Canada's Medicare (one insurance company) system and Germany's nonprofit health insurance.

Too often we think that we must choose between our dysfunctional system and the UK's socialized system where doctors and nurses are public employees and most hospitals and clinics are state owned. Even then, the boogeyman, UK's socialized system, exceeds ours in nearly every imaginable measurement possible.

Who decided that insurance must be for profit? Can anyone answer me that? What benefit are we seeing by having for profit insurance? Hello? Can anyone explain this to me?

It's time we open our eyes. We act like we need to reinvent the wheel while most European and Asian countries made significant reforms to their health care system 50-100 years ago. We are still stuck in the 19th century. Unbelievable!
 
Babe, I agree with a lot of what you've said, but my biggest issue is, is any of that realistic?

We've moved so far from that. Before we can make everyone pay as they go, costs have to be cut.

The middle class has to come back.

The top 1% can't own 25% of the wealth.

The tax system needs to be overhauled.

If we are going to limit welfare, we need to limit ALL welfare, including corporate tax breaks and walmart's Ponzi schemes with their employees.

The problem is that right AND left ideas are needed, but no one is willing to reach across and actually get something done.

They'd rather be right than get it right.

Tax reform forcing big corp to pay its fair share and give up its free stuff became infinitely harder After citizens united. Corporations pay congress a hell of a lot of money to keep the corporate trough open. Don't expect Donald's cabinet of billionaires to do anything but pass stuff that will enrich themselves and their Russian comrades.
 
States should "natinalize" ambulences. When an ambulance drives by my home it should say "SLC EMS" on it. Charge a flat fee like $100. Revisit the issue next year.

I think we need to stop talking about healthcare as a monolithic thing. It's a crazy complex thing with all sorts of different moving parts. The big picture will take care of itself if we are mindful of the details.
 
The biggest dupe in the history of mankind. "Free Markets will save all". The rallying cry of the Uber-rich who will end up owning it all and the poor they will enslave.

wether free market will save us all or not is irreleveant.

am i not free to do as i please. it is my money why force me to buy something i do not WANT!
 
This is where this fear of the government is completely irrational. There are instances where government does some amazing things. Long distance phone calling is one. Price setting in medicine is another.

Government is a tool and to ignore it is foolish. To overuse it is foolish.

the government rationing healthcare is what people fear!
 
States should "natinalize" ambulences. When an ambulance drives by my home it should say "SLC EMS" on it. Charge a flat fee like $100. Revisit the issue next year.

I think we need to stop talking about healthcare as a monolithic thing. It's a crazy complex thing with all sorts of different moving parts. The big picture will take care of itself if we are mindful of the details.

Why would nationalizing ambulances help anything?

One of the problems we have with health care is that we do not have a uniform system. Instead, we have so many different and competing systems all fighting for money. Medicare, Medicaid, the VA, insurance companies, etc.

The end result is a bloated and inefficient system that fails to provide universal coverage yet costs the most of any in the World.
 
You're right.

But here's the misconception. Most Americans think that there are only two systems of health care out there. For profit insurance and socialized medicine.

They ignore the other systems, like Canada's Medicare (one insurance company) system and Germany's nonprofit health insurance.

Too often we think that we must choose between our dysfunctional system and the UK's socialized system where doctors and nurses are public employees and most hospitals and clinics are state owned. Even then, the boogeyman, UK's socialized system, exceeds ours in nearly every imaginable measurement possible.

Who decided that insurance must be for profit? Can anyone answer me that? What benefit are we seeing by having for profit insurance? Hello? Can anyone explain this to me?

It's time we open our eyes. We act like we need to reinvent the wheel while most European and Asian countries made significant reforms to their health care system 50-100 years ago. We are still stuck in the 19th century. Unbelievable!

Technically we are stuck in the 20th century, right at the turn of the 21st century. The 90's are the genesis of the current cluster-fu....uh I mean mess we are in.
 
The real culprit behind most of the ills we experience at the hands of our government are the for-profit congress and senate. As long as lobbyists can line pockets to buy votes such reform will likely never happen. The fish stinks from the head, and this is the case with healthcare as with entitlements and bridges to nowhere. Follow the money trail. As long as our legislative branch can be outright bought, fully legally, there is little to no incentive for any of them to put forth anything more than a token effort to garner votes during the next election cycle. The system is broken, period.

Want to get real change going? Only allow congress and the senate to use the basic minimum health-care coverage available to the majority of poverty-level citizens, and cap their salaries at 100k per year with no better retirement benefits allowed other than that available to the majority of poverty-level citizens (i.e. social security). See how fast things change.
 
States should "natinalize" ambulences. When an ambulance drives by my home it should say "SLC EMS" on it. Charge a flat fee like $100. Revisit the issue next year.

I think we need to stop talking about healthcare as a monolithic thing. It's a crazy complex thing with all sorts of different moving parts. The big picture will take care of itself if we are mindful of the details.




that's why governments who are always inefficient and incompetent cannot CONTROL IT!
 
Why would nationalizing ambulances help anything?

One of the problems we have with health care is that we do not have a uniform system. Instead, we have so many different and competing systems all fighting for money. Medicare, Medicaid, the VA, insurance companies, etc.

The end result is a bloated and inefficient system that fails to provide universal coverage yet costs the most of any in the World.

so in short you wanna do what hitler did!

going from bismarcks sytem to hitler system!

dont deny it, you can call it whatever you want but historically it is hitlers system!
 
Why would nationalizing ambulances help anything?

One of the problems we have with health care is that we do not have a uniform system. Instead, we have so many different and competing systems all fighting for money. Medicare, Medicaid, the VA, insurance companies, etc.

The end result is a bloated and inefficient system that fails to provide universal coverage yet costs the most of any in the World.

I don't get aN outrageous bill from the FD if my house catches on fire. I probably don't need to get one if I crash a bicycle.

It's a service that we can be reasonably sure that state and local government can provide as well as and likely better than a private company can. It's not going to take a radical overhaul. It won't be ungodly expensive. While it's an unpredictable expense for an individual the everyday needs of a population 4 ambulances services are very predictable . It would be a fairly painless transition.

Further the one thing people need to think about when they think about health insurance is that it's not really the insurance companies that ultimately pay for the services, it's their customers that do. By largely removing this cost from the private markwt we can make Insurance a little more affordable while at the same time making sure that the uninsured aren't overly burdened by an emergency trip to the hospital.

This little thing to me is a no-brainer.
 
I don't get aN outrageous bill from the FD if my house catches on fire. I probably don't need to get one if I crash a bicycle.

It's a service that we can be reasonably sure that state and local government can provide as well as and likely better than a private company can. It's not going to take a radical overhaul. It won't be ungodly expensive. While it's an unpredictable expense for an individual the everyday needs of a population 4 ambulances services are very predictable . It would be a fairly painless transition.

Further the one thing people need to think about when they think about health insurance is that it's not really the insurance companies that ultimately pay for the services, it's their customers that do. By largely removing this cost from the private markwt we can make Insurance a little more affordable while at the same time making sure that the uninsured aren't overly burdened by an emergency trip to the hospital.

This little thing to me is a no-brainer.

Oh ok. Gotcha. Yeah I think this is a good idea.

Just to give everyone an idea over how much health care is (over)consuming our economy...

Health care accounts for 18 percent of our GDP. Our GDP is nearly $19 trillion dollars. So 18 percent of $19 trillion...

Just to put that in perspective, France is #2 or #3 in spending and is considered to be one of the most generous when it comes to health care beenfits. Their health care system is consuming 13 percent of its GDP. Its GDP is $2.7 trillion.

Per capita? We are spending 2-3 times as much per person as most industrialized countries. We spend the most, get little, and still don't even come up with universal coverage leaving 10 percent of our population (30 million) uninsured.

Isn't that crazy???
 
Oh ok. Gotcha. Yeah I think this is a good idea.

Just to give everyone an idea over how much health care is (over)consuming our economy...

Health care accounts for 18 percent of our GDP. Our GDP is nearly $19 trillion dollars. So 18 percent of $19 trillion...

Just to put that in perspective, France is #2 or #3 in spending and is considered to be one of the most generous when it comes to health care beenfits. Their health care system is consuming 13 percent of its GDP. Its GDP is $2.7 trillion.

Per capita? We are spending 2-3 times as much per person as most industrialized countries. We spend the most, get little, and still don't even come up with universal coverage leaving 10 percent of our population (30 million) uninsured.

Isn't that crazy???

you are not being statistically honest if you do a per capita comparison. because in those countries healthcare is being rationed certain procedures are done less often which brings down the per capita expenditures
 
Take away this extension, and you leave millions of young Americans without health care. Without a way for them to pay for insurance (no tax credit is big enough) we are leaving millions of young Americans vulnerable. This cost will be made up with increased premiums on the insured and a higher number of our GDP going towards health care costs.

If you're 26 years old and can't afford insurance, that's your fault. Plenty of jobs out there that pay well. Go get a CDL, go learn how to weld, become an electricians apprentice. But if you're 26 and can't pay for insurance, that's pathetic.
 
Tax reform forcing big corp to pay its fair share and give up its free stuff became infinitely harder After citizens united. Corporations pay congress a hell of a lot of money to keep the corporate trough open. Don't expect Donald's cabinet of billionaires to do anything but pass stuff that will enrich themselves and their Russian comrades.

I've asked before, and you've never answered, but what is your definition of "fair share"?
 
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