The Official "Stop WWIII" hype train

[♪alt13]

Trump is doing everything possible to distract everyone from his inability to pass any meaningful legislation and Russian ties. It's quite humorous to see how much he's changed. He campaigned nonstop on his "America first forget the world" mantra. Now, he's completely forgotten about America and its need for health care and jobs and is focusing totally on the world. My only question is, how far down the rabbit hole will his cult follow him? War with Syria? Will they continue to support him if he invades North Korea?

Trump is actually doing the same thing Obama did with N Korea. If you remember N Korea tested a nuke and shelled a S Korean island. OBama responded by sending the US Navy.

The threat that N Korea poses is very real and very serious, so much so that China has stopped all Chinese coal headed to NK and amassed 150k troops on the border.(February)

The situation has escalated this time around because NK has expanded its program. It is believed that they now have only a handful of Nukes but could have a stockpile of hundreds within a few months. We can stop a missile or two but if they launch a bunch at once they would probably have some "success". Further if NK continues to defy UN resolutions, expand its program but we do nothing then many more states are going to pursue a nuclear weapons program. The risk of nuclear war breaking out would greatly increase.

There were 2 states this decade pursuing nuclear weapons, Iran and NK. Iran came to the table NK ratcheted up its program. We must make it clear that it is better to do as Iran has done then NK has. It's likely the most important foreign policy issue of both the Trump and Obama presidencies. Obama seems to have made the right moves. Trump should continue to hold NK's feet to the fire. If NK continues to pursue ICBMs with nuclear warheads then any US president not just Trump has no choice but to show force and at some point, if NK doesn't change course, will have to use it.

 

[RandyForRubio]

If I was North Korea and everyone thought I was evil and made threats against me, I'd want to build up my defenses as well. I'd also want my enemies to know that I was able to defend myself. I would not want everyone else to attempt to force me into not being able to defend myself. And I would want everyone to leave me alone as I wouldn't really want to cause people to annihilate me and mine. I'm not saying that their leader isn't a bit nuts, but I would want to be doing the same thing that he is doing. Probably a simplistic view of the world, but in many ways I cannot blame countries that want to rebel against the USA and NATO.

I just hope we aren't poking the bear who would be content to hibernate a bit longer.

Lololololololol

Nice to know you'd run concentration camps, filter all news, and basically make yourself a god. And he's a little bit nuts?! Lololololololol

 

[Siro]

Lololololololol

Nice to know you'd run concentration camps, filter all news, and basically make yourself a god. And he's a little bit nuts?! Lololololololol

And use all of resources on the military while your population starves. I'm assuming he isn't eating ALL their food, since he weighs only as much as 5 average North Koreans.

I'm, obviously, not a fan at all of the US' disastrous foreign policy. And I am not advocating war with NK. But that post was cringe-worthy.

 

[Stoked]

And use all of resources on the military while your population starves. I'm assuming he isn't eating ALL their food, since he weighs only as much as 5 average North Koreans.

I'm, obviously, not a fan at all of the US' disastrous foreign policy. And I am not advocating war with NK. But that post was cringe-worthy.

That's the thing with N. Korea IMO. They, they government, don't want the normal things. Technology, increased population education, healthcare...they want their citizens to feel alienated and solely dependent on the gov. They (the gov.) are the abusive husband in a nightmare domestic violence case. Wife (population) is solely dependent on them for everything.

I wonder if China could make a military coup happen. Remove the ruling family/party completely. Then install a pro China gov. Trade, education, tech, medical starts to improve. Wouldn't the populace be far better off that way?

Just thinking out loud.

 

[JazzGal]

Lololololololol

Nice to know you'd run concentration camps, filter all news, and basically make yourself a god. And he's a little bit nuts?! Lololololololol

Not what I meant at all, as you well know. Of course I wouldn't run a country the same way as Korea. But it doesn't hurt to look at a situation from their point of view and how our actions appear to them and how that impacts their decisions, now does it?

 

[JazzGal]

That's the thing with N. Korea IMO. They, they government, don't want the normal things. Technology, increased population education, healthcare...they want their citizens to feel alienated and solely dependent on the gov. They (the gov.) are the abusive husband in a nightmare domestic violence case. Wife (population) is solely dependent on them for everything.

I wonder if China could make a military coup happen. Remove the ruling family/party completely. Then install a pro China gov. Trade, education, tech, medical starts to improve. Wouldn't the populace be far better off that way?

Just thinking out loud.

In an ideal world, sure. But when is the last time a foreign country removed a government and it was an improvement for the country and the surrounding area? I don't think Iraq is a good example.

 

[Rubashov]

Lololololololol

Nice to know you'd run concentration camps, filter all news, and basically make yourself a god. And he's a little bit nuts?! Lololololololol

Hmmmm nothing wrong with a good concentration camp, i hate being interrupted when I'm thinking. Filtering all news is alright, most main stream media is **** anyway, stories about cats up trees and cross promotional ******** about who was on X factor or something, I can give that a miss. Make myself a god? Whats not to like about that, who wouldn't want that? Just think about it, who is really the one that's nuts?

I'm not really sure where this is all going to go on the DRK normally push the envelope in a game of brinkmanship with the west in order to get money but this Kim Jong-Un isn't quite as good at this as his old man was, plus you can only cry wolf so many times. His missile arsenal is a proper threat to Japan, if they have been serviced and still work but in a conventional war i would expect them to fold pretty quickly and i don't think they'd have the backing of the Chinese either.

 

[Siro]

In an ideal world, sure. But when is the last time a foreign country removed a government and it was an improvement for the country and the surrounding area? I don't think Iraq is a good example.

Specially when the population is as deeply indoctrinated and isolated from reality as North Koreans are. Nonetheless, your original post implied that Kim Jung-Un is perfectly justified in what he's doing, and that the US is the villain in that story. Which is astonishing. But not that much. I'm used to listening to my family talk about how this or that horrific dictator is great for "standing up to the West".

 

[Stoked]

In an ideal world, sure. But when is the last time a foreign country removed a government and it was an improvement for the country and the surrounding area? I don't think Iraq is a good example.

Specially when the population is as deeply indoctrinated and isolated from reality as North Koreans are. Nonetheless, your original post implied that Kim Jung-Un is perfectly justified in what he's doing, and that the US is the villain in that story. Which is astonishing. But not that much. I'm used to listening to my family talk about how this or that horrific dictator is great for "standing up to the West".

In my scenario it is done by a somewhat friendly nation, China. The people then in charge would be the Korean military with whom the population is already familiar.

Korea is not the middle east with the ethnic and religious tensions. I wouldn't be too worried with a middle east type fall out.

Whatever. N. Korea will most likely stay exactly what it is.

 

[JazzGal]

Specially when the population is as deeply indoctrinated and isolated from reality as North Koreans are. Nonetheless, your original post implied that Kim Jung-Un is perfectly justified in what he's doing, and that the US is the villain in that story. Which is astonishing. But not that much. I'm used to listening to my family talk about how this or that horrific dictator is great for "standing up to the West".

Is looking at something from someone else's point of view too complicated?

I do not see the USA as the villain, but I do not see it as the hero to all either. And it is ridiculous to assume I believe Kim Jung-Un is perfectly justified in anything. His point of view is not my point of view. But it is worth evaluating. If other countries tried to impose their ideas of government and defense upon us, I'm sure you would not be delighted and would likely posture and threaten.

Sent from my HTC6535LVW using JazzFanz mobile app

 

[♪alt13]

In an ideal world, sure. But when is the last time a foreign country removed a government and it was an improvement for the country and the surrounding area? I don't think Iraq is a good example.

Both NK and SK claim the entire peninsula. So German reunification would be a good example.
Japan after ww2 would be another model because they saw the emperor in a similar light.

 

[JazzGal]

Both NK and SK claim the entire peninsula. So German reunification would be a good example.
Japan after ww2 would be another model because they saw the emperor in a similar light.

While they aren't exactly the same thing (German reunification was not due to foreign military action as far as I know), I like the examples. I haven't felt like our military actions since World War II and its aftermath have been all that useful.

 

[Siro]

Is looking at something from someone else's point of view too complicated?

I do not see the USA as the villain, but I do not see it as the hero to all either. And it is ridiculous to assume I believe Kim Jung-Un is perfectly justified in anything. His point of view is not my point of view. But it is worth evaluating. If other countries tried to impose their ideas of government and defense upon us, I'm sure you would not be delighted and would likely posture and threaten.

Sent from my HTC6535LVW using JazzFanz mobile app

Not complicated. Just ridiculous. "Let's take into account how NK's god-king feels about the situation". Ya, I don't care. I am concerned about ramifications of the war on the region. I don't give a rat's *** about the man's right to do as he will to 'his people' without interference.

 

[Siro]

Not complicated. Just ridiculous. "Let's take into account how NK's god-king feels about the situation". Ya, I don't care. I am concerned about ramifications of the war on the region. I don't give a rat's *** about the man's right to do as he will to 'his people' without interference.

Also, I didn't assume anything. You said his actions were understandable and that you would do the same thing. Which is baffling.

 

[Rubashov]

While they aren't exactly the same thing (German reunification was not due to foreign military action as far as I know), I like the examples. I haven't felt like our military actions since World War II and its aftermath have been all that useful.

Australia's intervention in East Timor worked out alright, also the Cubans in Angola probably made a fair difference.

 

[Rubashov]

Not complicated. Just ridiculous. "Let's take into account how NK's god-king feels about the situation". Ya, I don't care. I am concerned about ramifications of the war on the region. I don't give a rat's *** about the man's right to do as he will to 'his people' without interference.

Well the consequence to Japan of an armed conflict could be enormous to their society and economy, they and the South Koreans have a substantial interest in maintaining a negotiated peace.

 

[JazzGal]

Australia's intervention in East Timor worked out alright, also the Cubans in Angola probably made a fair difference.

I'll take your word for it. I am no world history scholar.

Sent from my HTC6535LVW using JazzFanz mobile app

 

[LogGrad98]

While they aren't exactly the same thing (German reunification was not due to foreign military action as far as I know), I like the examples. I haven't felt like our military actions since World War II and its aftermath have been all that useful.

Correct. The German reunification and the fall of the USSR were actually the results of one of the very few acts of global political altruism we have ever seen in the history of the world. One of the very rare times when a person in charge of a super-power put the needs of the people ahead of his own political ambitions.

It also didn't hurt that their economy was in big trouble and they were having a very difficult time keeping pace with the rest of the world. These things are highly complicated, so no one thing is ever the single cause. But it definitely was not a result of direct military action.

 

[♪alt13]

While they aren't exactly the same thing (German reunification was not due to foreign military action as far as I know), I like the examples. I haven't felt like our military actions since World War II and its aftermath have been all that useful.

Germany reunited because they all still saw themselves as Germans. The Koreans feel the same way. It is relevant because if the DPRK falls there is(unlike in Iraq) a fully functioning government already in place.

In the past this would have been a nightmare for China but I think they are coming to prefer it so long as it means a removal of most US forces from Korea.

The problem with a military intervention isn't that the country would fall apart politically afterwards. The problem is that it may turn out to be insanely costly in human life. Not only might NK successfully nuke a city or 2 but they may also have some success carrying out biological weapon attacks worldwide.

The question is does this ever get better, can it remain somewhat stable, or does it only get worse.

 

[The Thriller]

Using east and west Germany is a poor example. The differences between the two nations and the costs of uniting were a fraction to what the unification of north and South Korea would be. Plus, few of the parties nearby benefit economically.

Who says South Korea wants to even unite with North Korea? The disparity in GDP, per capita income, education, life expectancy, and even height leave most South Koreans anxious over the prospect of unification. The amount needed to rebuild and update North Korea would be in the trillions. In the meantime, millions of North Korean refugees would become the liability of both China and South Korea. Neither country has expressed interest in that. 20 percent of all North Korean defectors end up back in North Korea, unable to function in South Korean society. The percentage increases to well over 50 percent when it comes to drug trafficking and sex.

Lastly, North Korea has become the source of cheap labor for china and south Korea. Neither country has expressed interest in giving that up. Many times South Korea builds industrial parks near the border employing thousands of poor North Koreans who are paid near slave wages.

At this point, South Korea uniting with North would be like the United States adding Sudan or Sierra Leone.

Those looking for additional reading should read this article:

https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/apr/10/young-south-koreans-fear-unification-with-north-wo/

Or "The Real North Korea" by a former USSR scholar who spent many years in North Korea.

https://www.amazon.com/Real-North-Korea-Politics-Stalinist/dp/0199964297