Trump calls for dramatic tax cuts for individuals and businesses

[♪alt13]

How am I setting up a straw man?

You could've explained your post better. What alt ways of taxation do you propose that would fund those two programs better than payroll taxes? I'm sorry you created a poorly written post leading me to ask questions on how two major entitlement programs would be funded.

First SS runs a deficit now. So it's not fully funded as is and the situation is getting worse.

2 Payroll taxes provide a disincentive for businesses to invest in the middle class, which is what I think most people want them to do.

3 There are a myriad of ways those programs could be funded. Hell if they were paid for with general funds we could stop all the SS is going bankrupt talk.

Bottomline payroll taxes are probably the most harmful tax to our economy and our middleclass. Why are we taxing businesses for hiring our workforce? Why do we disicentize a raise by making it cost the company 15% more than the raise itself? Tax something else.

 

[Stoked]

First SS runs a deficit now. So it's not fully funded as is and the situation is getting worse.

2 Payroll taxes provide a disincentive for businesses to invest in the middle class, which is what I think most people want them to do.

3 There are a myriad of ways those programs could be funded. Hell if they were paid for with general funds we could stop all the SS is going bankrupt talk.

Bottomline payroll taxes are probably the most harmful tax to our economy and our middleclass. Why are we taxing businesses for hiring our workforce? Why do we disicentize a raise by making it cost the company 15% more than the raise itself? Tax something else.

There is only 1 thing under the current system that will stop SSA from being a money pit. That is to increase the number of workers to recipients. This used to be quite high but has tanked over the last 20 years. People are having less kids and as a result less money is coming in per recipient as that number climbs with increased disability applications and the retirement of the baby boomers.

On top of that the current political climate is all about government waste. Well, the fat is being cut. SSA is losing workers left and right for a myriad of reasons. They are not being replaced 1 for 1. SO there is more work with less people to do it. That in and of itself creates even more work for SSA and it is just a downward spiral at this point.

 

[♪alt13]

There is only 1 thing under the current system that will stop SSA from being a money pit. That is to increase the number of workers to recipients. This used to be quite high but has tanked over the last 20 years. People are having less kids and as a result less money is coming in per recipient as that number climbs with increased disability applications and the retirement of the baby boomers.

On top of that the current political climate is all about government waste. Well, the fat is being cut. SSA is losing workers left and right for a myriad of reasons. They are not being replaced 1 for 1. SO there is more work with less people to do it. That in and of itself creates even more work for SSA and it is just a downward spiral at this point.

That problem disappears if you stop funding it through payroll taxes. Bonus: the American workforce becomes more attractive in the age of globalization and automation.

 

[Stoked]

That problem disappears if you stop funding it through payroll taxes. Bonus: the American workforce becomes more attractive in the age of globalization and automation.

Very true, but messing with it has been demonized and used as a fear tactic for so long that it is political suicide. Every time someone brings it up the other side bellows non stop about them killing grandma or trying to get seniors evicted and starve them. I hate the Rs and Ds.

 

[LogGrad98]

There is only 1 thing under the current system that will stop SSA from being a money pit. That is to increase the number of workers to recipients. This used to be quite high but has tanked over the last 20 years. People are having less kids and as a result less money is coming in per recipient as that number climbs with increased disability applications and the retirement of the baby boomers.

On top of that the current political climate is all about government waste. Well, the fat is being cut. SSA is losing workers left and right for a myriad of reasons. They are not being replaced 1 for 1. SO there is more work with less people to do it. That in and of itself creates even more work for SSA and it is just a downward spiral at this point.

That is the effect of the baby-boomer bubble. A reverse pyramid. It will cause a lot more problems before it starts to get better. All indications though are that within a few generations it should even out again as the birth rate stabilizes.

 

[Stoked]

That is the effect of the baby-boomer bubble. A reverse pyramid. It will cause a lot more problems before it starts to get better. All indications though are that within a few generations it should even out again as the birth rate stabilizes.

Well SSA is no longer solvent within the decade. Get ready for some belt tightening.

 

[babe]

OK. Time for some new thinking here. I've heard all this stuff far too long already.

Frank isn't here anymore to make me just look stupid about economics, so here goes.....

The US has a very high tariff on domestic production. Way too high. I think it amounts to around a 60% TARIFF on everything we take to market, forcing us to raise our merchandise prices all across the board. If we had domestic free trade, according to the best reasoning of Adam Smith, everything would cost less. It would amount to the same thing as having the government pay 60% of the price of everything we buy. We would need 60% less payout from SS and our 4014(k).

Cutting personal taxes deeply would have the same effect on older folks who would otherwise need more SS and retirement accounts. Do you kids know the old geezers pay taxes on the 401(k), retirement, and SS checks?

And then you have the real bonus. Trump can just fire all the damn guvmint Obama deep-state clerks who have the time to play office politics to keep the staff needing new hire recruits to do nothing..... That's 30% of our US economy, right there. Can you imagine what would happen to retail prices if all those people had real jobs and made or did stuff with real value? We'd all feel like "Better Days are Here Again".

yep. that's the way it was when America got great in the first place, folks. We can do it again.

So with a 30% LARGER REAL WORKFORCE NOT ON THE GUVMINT PAYROLL, producing real stuff people want, prices would fall to about half. Add it all up.... 60% domestic tariff.... GONE. Budget for useless guvmint employees who do nothing.... GONE. Productivity DOUBLED.
Hell, we could support that guvmint on restaurant tips, everyone just throw down an extra $5 and no more IRS.

It would give us the same, even greater in fact...., economic boost as importing fifty million hardworking Mexicans.

 

[BabyPeterzz]

The question is do I get my check for $300?

 

[colton]

Do you kids know the old geezers pay taxes on the 401(k), retirement, and SS checks?

Only if they didn't do Roth IRA on their 401(k) (paying taxes on the money when they earned it), and only if their combined retirement earnings put them into a taxable bracket. I don't see a problem with that. Do you, and if so, why?

Trump can just fire all the damn guvmint Obama deep-state clerks who have the time to play office politics to keep the staff needing new hire recruits to do nothing..... That's 30% of our US economy, right there.

Say what?

According to the numbers that I found, the federal government employs 2.7 million people and there are about 122 million total adults employed in the US. So even if we could slash the federal government TREMENDOUSLY, like by 50%, that would only be an increase of 0.5*2.7/122 = 1.1% of workers into our US economy. How the heck did you get your 30% figure?

 

[♪alt13]

That is the effect of the baby-boomer bubble. A reverse pyramid. It will cause a lot more problems before it starts to get better. All indications though are that within a few generations it should even out again as the birth rate stabilizes.

All indications are that the birth rate is stabilizing below replacement rate. Many US cities will soon be facing Detroitification. I think we are going to see a lot of internal migration in the next couple decades from declining metros to cities of opportunity and growth.

 

[Harambe]

First SS runs a deficit now. So it's not fully funded as is and the situation is getting worse.

2 Payroll taxes provide a disincentive for businesses to invest in the middle class, which is what I think most people want them to do.

3 There are a myriad of ways those programs could be funded. Hell if they were paid for with general funds we could stop all the SS is going bankrupt talk.

Bottomline payroll taxes are probably the most harmful tax to our economy and our middleclass. Why are we taxing businesses for hiring our workforce? Why do we disicentize a raise by making it cost the company 15% more than the raise itself? Tax something else.

Are you offering a proven option, or just capitalist dreams like cutting taxes?

Expand on the general funds idea.

 

[franklin]

First SS runs a deficit now. So it's not fully funded as is and the situation is getting worse.

2 Payroll taxes provide a disincentive for businesses to invest in the middle class, which is what I think most people want them to do.

3 There are a myriad of ways those programs could be funded. Hell if they were paid for with general funds we could stop all the SS is going bankrupt talk.

Bottomline payroll taxes are probably the most harmful tax to our economy and our middleclass. Why are we taxing businesses for hiring our workforce? Why do we disicentize a raise by making it cost the company 15% more than the raise itself? Tax something else.

Taxes are all relative to external competition. Simply using the worn out term "middle class" does nothing to strengthen a tax cutting argument. All that would do is create middle class inflation and you will quickly end up right where you started with the higher rate. You'd probably create a whole lot of debt as well, unless you can increase the workforce participation rate (not likely that a significant enough amount of retired folks are going back to work or for longer).

OK. Time for some new thinking here. I've heard all this stuff far too long already.

Frank isn't here anymore to make me just look stupid about economics, so here goes.....

The US has a very high tariff on domestic production. Way too high. I think it amounts to around a 60% TARIFF on everything we take to market, forcing us to raise our merchandise prices all across the board. If we had domestic free trade, according to the best reasoning of Adam Smith, everything would cost less. It would amount to the same thing as having the government pay 60% of the price of everything we buy. We would need 60% less payout from SS and our 4014(k).

This is basically the starting of an argument for a VAT, with the difference being a VAT wouldn't necessarily lower or raise domestic consumer costs but it would make production more competitive with foreign markets when offset with business tax cuts. It's a convenient way for other countries to effectively impose tariffs without violating WTO, etc. The obvious benefits are increased Made In America and balance of trade. The trade account must balance and we do so by going into debt. A lot of staunch free market type economists claim this benefits us anyway as we export inflation and give them dwindling script for actual goods. It also raises poor countries' standards of living, eventually raising their labor costs to the point that they are much less competitive with Made In America. We've been seeing onshoring of jobs for about a decade now as Chinese labor has gone up and domestic production costs have gone down (thanks directional drilling).

 

[franklin]

WTS, I'm pretty damn sick of 40% of my income going towards retirement and I still won't afford to retire after 30 years as a professional, another dozen years of unprofessional work, and having more than one job at all times since I was 9. Y'all need to fix this damn FICA mess.

 

[♪alt13]

Are you offering a proven option, or just capitalist dreams like cutting taxes?

Expand on the general funds idea.

First SS payouts aren't going away. It would be political suicide. The Republicans would cease to exist as a political party if they did that.

2 Payroll taxes are a tax on the workforce. The whole reason why SS is funded this way is so that the rich would be ensured that they wouldn't end up paying for the program. So No I don't think it's a capitalist dream.

 

[♪alt13]

Taxes are all relative to external competition. Simply using the worn out term "middle class" does nothing to strengthen a tax cutting argument. All that would do is create middle class inflation and you will quickly end up right where you started with the higher rate. You'd probably create a whole lot of debt as well, unless you can increase the workforce participation rate (not likely that a significant enough amount of retired folks are going back to work or for longer).




This is basically the starting of an argument for a VAT, with the difference being a VAT wouldn't necessarily lower or raise domestic consumer costs but it would make production more competitive with foreign markets when offset with business tax cuts. It's a convenient way for other countries to effectively impose tariffs without violating WTO, etc. The obvious benefits are increased Made In America and balance of trade. The trade account must balance and we do so by going into debt. A lot of staunch free market type economists claim this benefits us anyway as we export inflation and give them dwindling script for actual goods. It also raises poor countries' standards of living, eventually raising their labor costs to the point that they are much less competitive with Made In America. We've been seeing onshoring of jobs for about a decade now as Chinese labor has gone up and domestic production costs have gone down (thanks directional drilling).

If you are talking about wage inflation then yeah that's kinda the point.

 

[The Midnight]

Quick questions, do Americans have a universal pension system for those over 65, or something similar?

 

[RJF]

Quick questions, do Americans have a universal pension system for those over 65, or something similar?

Social Security essentially. I don't expect there to be a SS benefit available when I retire so I've taken steps to build my own retirement. Anyone my age or near it is foolish not to do the same.

 

[The Midnight]

Social Security essentially. I don't expect there to be a SS benefit available when I retire so I've taken steps to build my own retirement. Anyone my age or near it is foolish not to do the same.

Wow ok, so everyone over 65 currently gets social security? That's cool. Do you need to spend a certain amount of time in the country to get that or do you get it no matter what?


Like in NZ, you need to spend at least 6 months here in a year to be eligible.

 

[♪alt13]

Social Security essentially. I don't expect there to be a SS benefit available when I retire so I've taken steps to build my own retirement. Anyone my age or near it is foolish not to do the same.

So you think that a future Congress will turn to its voters and say: sorry, the trust fund ran out of money. We would love to keep giving you money but we can't. Don't forget to vote for me!

It won't happen

 

[RJF]

So you think that a future Congress will turn to its voters and say: sorry, the trust fund ran out of money. We would love to keep giving you money but we can't. Don't forget to vote for me!

It won't happen

More that they'll keep raising the age of retirement. I don't plan on working until I'm 6 feet under.