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Exum states that he absolutely feels more comfortable at the point...

Et tu Brute said:
You really need to reread this post.

You prove that Exum doesn't need a markedly improved shot! When they sag off him he can rush for the TD.
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HOW? Ex[lain? How does he go for the TD when the defenders don't guard him to the 3p line and instead give themselves the space required to react and neutralize his advantage of speed? When they sag off of him when he's off-ball they double other players, they interrupt more passing lanes, etc. without him being able to punish them for it by hitting the open jumpers. If he can't hit the jumpshot he's a huge liability on offense. There is a reason why guards that can't shoot are becoming more and more expendable in the league.

There really aren't many ways for a PG who cannot shoot to be successful in the league. He needs to be a threat with ball in his hands creating offense and he needs to go to the line to bump up his efficiency because of inability to do it from 3p land. For this to happen with Exum, he needs two main things - handle and off-the-dribble mid-range shot. He cannot be a PG who has insecure and turnover prone handle. He cannot be a PG in the league without having the dribbling skills to survive against pressure. He also needs to develop mid-range game off the dribble at least to the point where he would be a threat from there so defenders wouldn't always take his lane to the basket.
 
stitches said:
HOW? Ex[lain? How does he go for the TD when the defenders don't guard him to the 3p line and instead give themselves the space required to react and neutralize his advantage of speed? When they sag off of him when he's off-ball they double other players, they interrupt more passing lanes, etc. without him being able to punish them for it by hitting the open jumpers. If he can't hit the jumpshot he's a huge liability on offense. There is a reason why guards that can't shoot are becoming more and more expendable in the league.

There really aren't many ways for a PG who cannot shoot to be successful in the league. He needs to be a threat with ball in his hands creating offense and he needs to go to the line to bump up his efficiency because of inability to do it from 3p land. For this to happen with Exum, he needs two main things - handle and off-the-dribble mid-range shot. He cannot be a PG who has insecure and turnover prone handle. He cannot be a PG in the league without having the dribbling skills to survive against pressure. He also needs to develop mid-range game off the dribble at least to the point where he would be a threat from there so defenders wouldn't always take his lane to the basket.
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Dude.. Dante dunked all over Klay and West on that play.

That was a prototype play of what will and could happen if his direct opponent sags too far off him and the help defender is off balance.

Dante will already be up the other end getting ready to play D while West, Thompson et al wonder how that happened .... and happened so fast.


The second paragraph I think is more to my thinking.
Agreed he must get to the line. I don't think he will ever be an NBA above average shooter. So he must compensate. But he has the tools to get to the line. Also, a semblance of a midrange game would open his driving further no doubt.

My point is essentially this. Dante isn't fast. He is lighting. Only Westbrook and a handful of others have such speed. So some of the norms you attribute to his situation don't apply to the same extent. Sagging off X, when he figures it out, will be suicide for opposition defenses. He will be able to choose from attacking the rim with intent to finish, attacking with intent to draw contact, pull up and take the wide open jumpers, or attack the rim with intent to dish, or take the occasional 3. These will be his choices if opponents just try to pick his path to the rim. That player will basically clog the space and potentially adversely impact the decision-making of the help defender.

The other advantage he has is the age of switch defending. There are so many opportunities in a game for super fast players to take advantage of sloppy switches. He is going to be able to exploit these.
 
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Et tu Brute said:
Dude.. Dante dunked all over Klay and West on that play.

That was a prototype play of what will and could happen if his direct opponent sags too far off him and the help defender is off balance.

Dante will already be up the other end getting ready to play D while West, Thompson et al wonder how that happened .... and happened so fast.


The second paragraph I think is more to my thinking.
Agreed he must get to the line. I don't think he will ever be an NBA above average shooter. So he must compensate. But he has the tools to get to the line. Also, a semblance of a midrange game would open his driving further no doubt.

My point is essentially this. Dante isn't fast. He is lighting. Only Westbrook and a handful of others have such speed. So some of the norms you attribute to his situation don't apply to the same extent. Sagging off X, when he figures it out, will be suicide for opposition defenses. He will be able to choose from attacking the rim with intent to finish, attacking with intent to draw contact, pull up and take the wide open jumpers, or attack the rim with intent to dish, or take the occasional 3. These will be his choices if opponents just try to pick his path to the rim. That player will basically clog the space and potentially adversely impact the decision-making of the help defender.
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No it isn't a prototypical play. Otherwise he will be having those plays every single game and multiple times a game. Dante has exceptional talent of speed and he has some feel about how to catch opponents off-balance(actually I think more his defender than the help defender). He also has been working on some off-rhythm, off wrong foot finishes... I absolutely agree with this. He cannot live on those in the league. This doesn't and can't happen nearly enough for him to be successful. Those are flash plays, Klay didn't expect this to happen... he didn't expect it for a reason - it's because it almost never happens. And it almost never happens because defenders usually give themselves enough space to be able to react. The scouting report is already out on Dante. Just watch game tape and see how they defend him. Very few players in the league are defended so far off. It's because he cannot punish them from long-range and it makes it much easier to contain his penetration.

I've been one of Exum's biggest fans and defenders around here since he was drafted. Hell, I bought my first Jazz jersey and it's an Exum one. There would be nobody happier than me if he succeeds. But at some point we just need to recognize that there are real problems with his current skill-level(handle, shot) and that unless he seriously improves both, he will have very hard time succeeding in the league.
 
stitches said:
No it isn't a prototypical play. Otherwise he will be having those plays every single game and multiple times a game. Dante has exceptional talent of speed and he has some feel about how to catch opponents off-balance(actually I think more his defender than the help defender). He also has been working on some off-rhythm, off wrong foot finishes... I absolutely agree with this. He cannot live on those in the league. This doesn't and can't happen nearly enough for him to be successful. Those are flash plays, Klay didn't expect this to happen... he didn't expect it for a reason - it's because it almost never happens. And it almost never happens because defenders usually give themselves enough space to be able to react. The scouting report is already out on Dante. Just watch game tape and see how they defend him. Very few players in the league are defended so far off. It's because he cannot punish them from long-range and it makes it much easier to contain his penetration.

I've been one of Exum's biggest fans and defenders around here since he was drafted. Hell, I bought my first Jazz jersey and it's an Exum one. There would be nobody happier than me if he succeeds. But at some point we just need to recognize that there are real problems with his current skill-level(handle, shot) and that unless he seriously improves both, he will have very hard time succeeding in the league.
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**** his shot.

Seriously. It's not the only skill in the game. There are plenty of players who are elite who can't shoot for **** [granted, most of them are bigs :)].

Klay was sagging off him!! That's the whole point. He sagged off him and he still couldn't recover.

The reason you don't see it all the time is multifaceted. Give me a break..:

1) Isn't given the greenlight
2) Doesn't get the ball in suitable positions (camping out in the corners)
3) Is about the 5th option on offense
4) Fear of failure and being benched
5) Not trusting himself to finish when he gets to the rim.
6) Poor decision making when confronted by the help defender


It wasn't a fluke play. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJqdPY_YpPk (It doesn't get much better than dunking on Forbes:))

The (Klay) play was made because unlike when he blows by his direct opponent normally, there wasn't a help defender.

Don't pretend that Klay and others can slow him down. Only the help defender can stop him.
 
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I disagree with anybody who doesnt have faith in Exum. Brute is spot on with this thread. Exum does have elite talent in his speed to go along with his rare size for the position. And his instincts are there.

So many current stars were discounted early in their careers. Harden wasn't worth keeping on OKC because he wouldnt pass. Curry had to struggle to prove himself next to Ellis. IsaiahT wasnt seen as a starter yet is now a star.

Exum is still a kid, but you are completely blind if you didnt see the flashes of brilliance in game 4. The defense, burst, attacking and passing. That wrap around pass to Favors in the lane when Favors drew the foul was incredible.

Utah is notorious for questuonably grooming very young, promising talent. For every Deron, Gobert and Hayward there are more in guys like DStephenson, Miles, Koufos, Millsap, and Kanter. Not to mention our current guys like Hood, Exum and Lyles who should be emerging as difference makers but are mired in mediocrity.

Simply put, we have to start relying on Exum more. He and Gobert represent special talents and Hayward is a comprehensive player and All Star. Dont screw this up Jazz.

Sent from my VS995 using JazzFanz mobile app
 
OK, Klay Thompson can't stop Dante. Nobody can... he will blow past every defender no matter how much space they give him. Lets hope you are right. I'm still waiting to see it. Maybe we will next year. Nothing I've seen so far leads me to believe he can be a + offensive player. I still contend there is a severe lack of skill to accompany his obvious physical and athletic talents.

I put that question on the board before - give me examples of point guards that succeeded in the league with bad handles and no off the dribble mid-range and/or long-range game? I will wait.
 
stitches said:
OK, Klay Thompson can't stop Dante. Nobody can... he will blow past every defender no matter how much space they give him. Lets hope you are right. I'm still waiting to see it. Maybe we will next year. Nothing I've seen so far leads me to believe he can be a + offensive player. I still contend there is a severe lack of skill to accompany his obvious physical and athletic talents.

I put that question on the board before - give me examples of point guards that succeeded in the league with bad handles and no off the dribble mid-range and/or long-range game? I will wait.
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Lmao what? Thompson can stop Dante for sure.

Wait, just realized that was sarcasm.

Sent from my A0001 using JazzFanz mobile app
 
LoPo said:
So many current stars were discounted early in their careers. Harden wasn't worth keeping on OKC because he wouldnt pass. Curry had to struggle to prove himself next to Ellis.

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Weird examples.
Harden wasn't discounted by anyone. OKC just liked what ibaka gave them more and Houston gave up quite a few assets to get harden. Everyone knew harden was really good.
Curry wasn't discounted because people didn't realize he was good, everyone knew he was good. Warriors got him for cheap due to injury issues.
 
stitches said:
OK, Klay Thompson can't stop Dante. Nobody can... he will blow past every defender no matter how much space they give him. Lets hope you are right. I'm still waiting to see it. Maybe we will next year. Nothing I've seen so far leads me to believe he can be a + offensive player. I still contend there is a severe lack of skill to accompany his obvious physical and athletic talents.

I put that question on the board before - give me examples of point guards that succeeded in the league with bad handles and no off the dribble mid-range and/or long-range game? I will wait.
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Rondo didn't have bad handles but he couldn't shoot for ****.
 
fishonjazz said:
Weird examples.
Harden wasn't discounted by anyone. OKC just liked what ibaka gave them more and Houston gave up quite a few assets to get harden. Everyone knew harden was really good.
Curry wasn't discounted because people didn't realize he was good, everyone knew he was good. Warriors got him for cheap due to injury issues.
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Harden was considered the 4th most important player on that OKC team. Now he is a top 7 NBA talent. Yes, he was discounted.

GS almost traded Curry to go with Ellis. People questioned if he was a franchise cornerstone. Now he is a top 7 player.

Sent from my VS995 using JazzFanz mobile app
 
LoPo said:
Harden was considered the 4th most important player on that OKC team. Now he is a top 7 NBA talent. Yes, he was discounted.

GS almost traded Curry to go with Ellis. People questioned if he was a franchise cornerstone. Now he is a top 7 player.

Sent from my VS995 using JazzFanz mobile app
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Everyone knew that harden and curry were really good.

No one knows if exum is any good.

Apples to oranges dude. X in his 4th year is nothing like curry or harden in their 4th years (plus harden and curry had stellar college careers).
Compare their stats if you disagree.


Not a good comparison.
 
stitches said:
OK, Klay Thompson can't stop Dante. Nobody can... he will blow past every defender no matter how much space they give him. Lets hope you are right. I'm still waiting to see it. Maybe we will next year. Nothing I've seen so far leads me to believe he can be a + offensive player. I still contend there is a severe lack of skill to accompany his obvious physical and athletic talents.

I put that question on the board before - give me examples of point guards that succeeded in the league with bad handles and no off the dribble mid-range and/or long-range game? I will wait.
Click to expand...


Why am I accepting your ground rules.
The X handles thing is way overblown. He doesn't get stripped much at all. Many posters have noted that it is when stops his dribble and looks to pass that he makes TO. Furthermore, it doesn't stop him penetrating deep.
It could be worked on obviously. Giving him a better chance at finishing and dishing.


You are changing the parameters on the run here.

You basically said, X needs to get a better shot or he is done.

I am stating that shooting is not the be all and end all.


You could argue Lebron's worst trait is shooting. And he initiates a lot of their offense.
Same with the Greek Freak. His shooting is his worst trait.
Rondo - crappy shooter.
Rubio - until recently, putrid.
John Wall??????
Ben Simmons!


I mean give me a break.

You sound like Locke. Dante can't go to his left and can't dribble with his left.
Next game: Dante makes 3 moves to his left that result in layups and dunks.


The truth seems to be that fictional narratives exist about who Dante currently is as a basketballer. (And I'm sure you think I am writing one of them now...)
 
Et tu Brute said:
Why am I accepting your ground rules.
The X handles thing is way overblown. He doesn't get stripped much at all. Many posters have noted that it is when stops his dribble and looks to pass that he makes TO. Furthermore, it doesn't stop him penetrating deep.
It could be worked on obviously. Giving him a better chance at finishing and dishing.


You are changing the parameters on the run here.

You basically said, X needs to get a better shot or he is done.

I am stating that shooting is not the be all and end all.


You could argue Lebron's worst trait is shooting. And he initiates a lot of their offense.
Same with the Greek Freak. His shooting is his worst trait.
Rondo - crappy shooter.
Rubio - until recently, putrid.
John Wall??????
Ben Simmons!


I mean give me a break.

You sound like Locke. Dante can't go to his left and can't dribble with his left.
Next game: Dante makes 3 moves to his left that result in layups and dunks.


The truth seems to be that fictional narratives exist about who Dante currently is as a basketballer. (And I'm sure you think I am writing one of them now...)
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Not really, I've been saying his handle(and general skill level) and his shot are the problem from the very start and in other threads too. This was my first post here:

stitches said:
He might feel more comfortable when he's at the point, but I'm feeling more comfortable when he isn't. His handle is just not up to par for the position. He coughs it up any time he faces pressure with the ball. This to me is the no. 1 thing he needs to work on this summer if he wants to be a PG in the league, because his current handle is not NBA PG-level.
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Every single one of those you mentioned has a MUCH better handle than Exum. They are not in the same universe when it comes to handle and skill level really.
 
Dante needs to listen to the coaching staff and humble himself a bit. They want him to be successful as much as he does. He's done nothing to show he is better than the guys that played in front of him and he needs to mentally and emotionally commit to being successful in his current role with the team.

We need to commit to that role and ride out the lows and learning moments. Our staff needs to have more patience with the guy for sure and invest in his future. He's shown some flashes... let him work through the difficult moments now.

The timing of his development was always going to be a challenge... the ACL made it so much harder. It may not work out, but both sides should try harder here.
 
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