Will a Jazz player take a knee during the National Anthem this year?

[Stoked]

He could have been America's sweetheart and Jimmy Stewart's girlfriend for all I care, but that doesn't exempt him of what he did later in Cuba, and doesn't justify people sporting shirts featuring him in 2017.

Pinochet's coup in Chile was largely supported by the local population, he even received the U.S. stamp of approval and plenty of C.I.A. support, is it OK to sport shirts with his face now?

Legally? Yes, it's OK.

Morally? Well, morality has always been a tricky thing.

 

[Tak]

Is it okay to wear shirts of presidents of the USA that have done terrible things? Is it okay to celebrate US even though it has committed awful acts? I think so. It is all relative.

His shirt was not of just fidel. It was of a meaningful event in US history.

I wont defend Castro because he did awful things but we also celebrate others it just depends on the situation. Nelson Mandela for example is celebrated as a hero for the great things he did. But many people ignore the fact that he orchestrated bombings that killed innocent people. It can be perspective sometimes. Castro did do some good things in his life along with some terrible things.

Almost every famous political character did good things along bad things in their lives, Hitler was the first modern chief of state to institute animal rights laws for example, but I don't see PETA, WWF or the Humane Association celebrating that. The problem is how much are we going to forget the bad deeds in order to push for what we see as just or right. Mandela is a great example, i'm sure the families of his victims were thrilled when he became an international icon for peace.

If it's OK for some people to see the good things in those controversial political characters, then it's OK for other people to remind them all the crap they have done, specially if that crap meant the death of innocent people.

 

[Tak]

Legally? Yes, it's OK.

Morally? Well, morality has always been a tricky thing.

I know morality is a tricky thing, but in this case it shouldn't be that hard:

Why don't we use Pinochet's t-shirts? -> Because he sent innocent people to die.
But he did rescued his country from poverty and chaos -> Innocent. People. Dead.

Why don't we use Castro's t-shirts? -> Because he sent innocent people to die.
But he did come to the U.S. to speak in favor of people's rights -> Innocent. People. Dead.

 

[Ron Mexico]

Almost every famous political character did good things along bad things in their lives, Hitler was the first modern chief of state to institute animal rights laws for example, but I don't see PETA, WWF or the Humane Association celebrating that. The problem is how much are we going to forget the bad deeds in order to push for what we see as just or right. Mandela is a great example, i'm sure the families of his victims were thrilled when he became an international icon for peace.

If it's OK for some people to see the good things in those controversial political characters, then it's OK for other people to remind them all the crap they have done, specially if that crap meant the death of innocent people.

Definitely not arguing you can't call people out for things you don't like. I don't see his shirt as honoring Castro but if you do I could see that being bothersome. I see it as honoring that event that was significant.

There are worse things that are not being called out though including things done by our country and leaders. Including things done to Cuba by our country and leaders.

I also see his argument that this country and racists policy and people are responsible for more deaths and mistreatment of innocent people than what Castro did individually. It's obviously a complicated issue.

The reality to me is it's sad that racism is still so pervasive in our society and still hurting people. It's embarrassing that we still need to fight for these rights but the fact is we do. Maybe this isn't the perfect way to do it but I think it's better than the violent ways others have had to fight for those basic human rights in the past.

 

[framer]

Definitely not arguing you can't call people out for things you don't like. I don't see his shirt as honoring Castro but if you do I could see that being bothersome. I see it as honoring that event that was significant.

There are worse things that are not being called out though including things done by our country and leaders. Including things done to Cuba by our country and leaders.

I also see his argument that this country and racists policy and people are responsible for more deaths and mistreatment of innocent people than what Castro did individually. It's obviously a complicated issue.

The reality to me is it's sad that racism is still so pervasive in our society and still hurting people. It's embarrassing that we still need to fight for these rights but the fact is we do. Maybe this isn't the perfect way to do it but I think it's better than the violent ways others have had to fight for those basic human rights in the past.

Denouncing Castro is not a damn "complicated issue." Just stop. If you disagree with Castro he has you jailed or killed. Every time. There are no dissidents living freely in Cuba. That is not equal to things Trump does. It is far worse that whatever slights Kap is yelling about. What Castro does is NOT the fault of American imperialism. When activists that may have a good point start reflexively defending Castro, they can go to hell. Don't care about them or their support of whatever their cause is.

 

[Tak]

Definitely not arguing you can't call people out for things you don't like. I don't see his shirt as honoring Castro but if you do I could see that being bothersome. I see it as honoring that event that was significant.

There are worse things that are not being called out though including things done by our country and leaders. Including things done to Cuba by our country and leaders.

I also see his argument that this country and racists policy and people are responsible for more deaths and mistreatment of innocent people than what Castro did individually. It's obviously a complicated issue.

The reality to me is it's sad that racism is still so pervasive in our society and still hurting people. It's embarrassing that we still need to fight for these rights but the fact is we do. Maybe this isn't the perfect way to do it but I think it's better than the violent ways others have had to fight for those basic human rights in the past.

I understand the need to put racism in the conversation, that's out of the question, I just can't understand or condone to evoke the figure of a human rights offender when you are supposed to champion human rights yourself. As Framer said, it shouldn't be complicated to denounce a dictator, no matter their death toll in comparison to others.

 

[Ron Mexico]

I understand the need to put racism in the conversation, that's out of the question, I just can't understand or condone to evoke the figure of a human rights offender when you are supposed to champion human rights yourself. As Framer said, it shouldn't be complicated to denounce a dictator, no matter their death toll in comparison to others.

Umm. Racism is what this conversation is about... Lol.

 

[Ron Mexico]

Denouncing Castro is not a damn "complicated issue." Just stop. If you disagree with Castro he has you jailed or killed. Every time. There are no dissidents living freely in Cuba. That is not equal to things Trump does. It is far worse that whatever slights Kap is yelling about. What Castro does is NOT the fault of American imperialism. When activists that may have a good point start reflexively defending Castro, they can go to hell. Don't care about them or their support of whatever their cause is.

Yes, Kap wasn't wearing a shirt of just Castro or supporting him. That is what's being discussed.

 

[Tak]

Umm. Racism is what this conversation is about... Lol.

I was talking about the need to put racism in the social conversation, along with other human rights issues as something that needs to be addressed, I wasn't referring to this particular conversation. Unwarranted Lol.

 

[Ron Mexico]

I was talking about the need to put racism in the social conversation, along with other human rights issues as something that needs to be addressed, I wasn't referring to this particular conversation. Unwarranted Lol.

The issue is racism. You are trying to distract the message and attack the person championing a good cause by condemning him because of a shirt that is a shirt supporting castro. Yes, I agree Castro did terrible things. I dont support him. Trying to attack Kap is simply shifting away from the real issue and attacking him misguided. That moment was meaningful for the black rights movement. That is what was being celebrated in the shirt. That moment isnt one I fully understand and it sounds like neither do you but I know it is meaningful to human rights in the US.

That is what this entire discussion is about. Including that shirt and that moment.

 

[framer]

Yes, Kap wasn't wearing a shirt of just Castro or supporting him. That is what's being discussed.

http://www.miamiherald.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/armando-salguero/article117033883.html

So if Trump wore a shirt with Hitler speaking to Charles Lindbergh that is perfectly acceptable because Charles Lindbergh is awesome? I the only available photo of Malcom X the one where he is posing with Castro? Kaep has no problem with Castro. He defended Castro to the reporter in the article I referenced. The reporter was born in Havana. . .

 

[Ron Mexico]

http://www.miamiherald.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/armando-salguero/article117033883.html

So if Trump wore a shirt with Hitler speaking to Charles Lindbergh that is perfectly acceptable because Charles Lindbergh is awesome? I the only available photo of Malcom X the one where he is posing with Castro? Kaep has no problem with Castro. He defended Castro to the reporter in the article I referenced. The reporter was born in Havana. . .

If it was a meaningful event in the context of the current movement an relevant than yes. That doesn't exist though.

I also don't find issues or people black and white. Kap isn't perfect. Castro did some great things along with some awful things, just like most leaders including our own.

 

[Tak]

The issue is racism. You are trying to distract the message and attack the person championing a good cause by condemning him because of a shirt that is a shirt supporting castro. Yes, I agree Castro did terrible things. I dont support him. Trying to attack Kap is simply shifting away from the real issue and attacking him misguided. That moment was meaningful for the black rights movement. That is what was being celebrated in the shirt. That moment isnt one I fully understand and it sounds like neither do you but I know it is meaningful to human rights in the US.

That is what this entire discussion is about. Including that shirt and that moment.

Please tell me where I have said something against Kaepernick as a person or against his character, I don't even know the man because I don't follow the NFL. Thinking that i'm trying to attack "Kap" or distract the message, basically putting an intentionality in my words that I haven't stated is what muddle the whole attempt to have a meaningful discussion about this subject.

It's not hard understand that the use of the image of a known humans rights offender to back up a humans right issue is a contradiction at best, that people can disagree with that, and that particular disagreement doesn't mean that they are against that person or the message that person is trying to convey. In other hand, if you think that a good cause and the people that champions it are automatically immune to criticism, then you're dangerously close to zealotry.

 

[Ron Mexico]

Please tell me where I have said something against Kaepernick as a person or against his character, I don't even know the man because I don't follow the NFL. Thinking that i'm trying to attack "Kap" or distract the message, basically putting an intentionality in my words that I haven't stated is what muddle the whole attempt to have a meaningful discussion about this subject.

It's not hard understand that the use of the image of a known humans rights offender to back up a humans right issue is a contradiction at best, that people can disagree with that, and that particular disagreement doesn't mean that they are against that person or the message that person is trying to convey. In other hand, if you think that a good cause and the people that champions it are automatically immune to criticism, then you're dangerously close to zealotry.

I definitely don't think you can't criticised him, I disagree with your specific criticism. I am sure Kap has plenty of things he has done wrong. I also feel this is focusing on a silly non issue that distracts from a real issue. By nature saying bad things about what someone is wearing and that message is by nature saying bad things about him. It's not a bubble. It's a common strategy used way by many to hurt what someone is saying. To find other things to make them look bad.

 

[Engorged On Unborn Gore]

If Kennedy is allowed some bad moments (Bay of pigs, Tito) then Castro should be allowed a good moment or two.

That moment with Malcom X should be viewed within the time and place wherein it occurred. Being open and honest about history means checking propaganda at the door.

 

[Tak]

I definitely don't think you can't criticised him, I disagree with your specific criticism. I am sure Kap has plenty of things he has done wrong. I also feel this is focusing on a silly non issue that distracts from a real issue. By nature saying bad things about what someone is wearing and that message is by nature saying bad things about him. It's not a bubble. It's a common strategy used way by many to hurt what someone is saying. To find other things to make them look bad.

And by nature wearing a t-shirt with the effigy of someone means that I endorse or support that someone, not a bubble either.

Look, as I said I don't know Kaepernick and I can only assume he meant well, but wearing that shirt is not going to help his discourse if his goal is to raise awareness about human rights.

 

[Miggs]

Most people in the U.S. saw Castro as a hero before he went with the Soviets instead of the U.S..

The U.S. would have gladly taken him on as an ally after the revolution, and they would have painted him as every bit a hero and you would be sitting here calling him a freedom fighter right now instead of a piece of ****.

tl;dr before people in the U.S. hated Castro they loved him

I work with a few teachers who are Cuban and grew up there. Not sure how they got here but whatevs. Yeah, basically they say it was awful there. Awful.

That said, on a funnier note, one of those women last year posted on FB how our school is worse than living under the Castro regime growing up. Sort of true. My district sucks. Morons running it. The Super is an awful used car salesman. Like legit, at our welcome back in-service day every year, he gets on stage for maybe a total of 30 minutes. Half of that time is used with awful movie clips (some awful Nolte movie I've never heard of--had to be straight to video), Rocky...like that...He starts by showing an A bomb going off. Talks sort of like Tony Robbins only way more douchey and dumb. It's hilariously bad. Like pathetic that the dude is in education. But hey, he got a Masters or two, some people bought his ******** along the way, and he's not a Super making around 250K all-in I'd guess.

 

[jazzrule]

What a ****ing snowflake.

snowflake=mainstream media and liberals in general

 

[jazzrule]

Tell you what...for all those fans who get their knickers in a twist and think they're so patriotic by criticizing these players...punch the guy next to you who remains seated during the anthem eating or drinking. Swat the cell phone out of the hands of the fan who is texting or checking other scores. Fans are FAR worse than the players at disrespecting the national anthem.

I am not paying to watch the person sitting next to me.

 

[jazzrule]

Who is this "they." I have yet to hear Kapernick complain about that and I have yet to hear him say he regrets what he did.

I am pretty sure he is proud of what he has done and that he has brought more light to the fact that black people in this country are being treated worse by police, courts and prisons.

Obviously like you many NFL owners care more about money than their politics. Obviously Kap cares more about his morals.

Yeah right Kap has said if someone will sign me I guarantee I won't kneel during the anthem again.
Tell me Ron do you support Black Lives Matter? You support groups that want cops killed? Kap did not just kneel...he wore socks depicting police as pigs. If that is your kind of hero, go take a flying leap.