Las Vegas: Worst Mass Shooting in US History

[franklin]

The NRA is a ****ing joke. They don't represent the right to bear arms, but the right to make tons of money off of firearms.

As bad as this Vegas shooting was, it could have been a whole lot worse, had the shooter been equipped with suppressors. The shooting lasted for 10 minutes, partly because people thought it was only fireworks. Suppressors could have given this nutjob 2 or 3 times longer to shoot at people who would have had no idea anything was happening.

And guess who is currently supporting legislation to make suppressors legal to everyone? That's right, the NRA. Why you say? the answer is $$$$$. Stop supporting the NRA. They are a ****ing sham.

This whole thing is being sold as hearing protection. You know, because it's too much trouble to put ear plugs in. Never mind the potential abuses that would come with being able to shoot people without anyone hearing a shot.

That's messed up and what I was pointing to. Fanatical **** does nothing but turn people off to a cause. Drop that and get ahead of the curve if you want to influence people.

 

[RandyForRubio]

The NRA is a ****ing joke. They don't represent the right to bear arms, but the right to make tons of money off of firearms.

As bad as this Vegas shooting was, it could have been a whole lot worse, had the shooter been equipped with suppressors. The shooting lasted for 10 minutes, partly because people thought it was only fireworks. Suppressors could have given this nutjob 2 or 3 times longer to shoot at people who would have had no idea anything was happening.

And guess who is currently supporting legislation to make suppressors legal to everyone? That's right, the NRA. Why you say? the answer is $$$$$. Stop supporting the NRA. They are a ****ing sham.

This whole thing is being sold as hearing protection. You know, because it's too much trouble to put ear plugs in. Never mind the potential abuses that would come with being able to shoot people without anyone hearing a shot.

Just to clarify here, you would certainly hear a .223 (I'm assuming that's what he used) with a suppressor on. It doesn't make a gun silent, it just muffles it. Now if you put it on a .22, it's pretty close to silent.

I wouldn't mind suppressors being more accessible, but they're not hard to get. Just expensive and a lengthy process. If I really wanted to, I could go to a machinist friend and make one myself, but I don't want to go around the law. But as someone who shoots high powered rifles, it sure would be handy. And wearing ear protection while hunting isn't that realistic.

This whole issue is dramatized by people who watch too many movies where guns are silent.

 

[Stoked]

You realize that silencers do not completely muffle the sound of the shot right? They only lessen it somewhat. An AR 15 with a silencer is still pretty damn loud. Not to mention using them in rapid succession wears them out very quickly. In this case it would have done next to nothing and might have even saved lives. The silencer would have warped and then it would explode in his face within the first few minutes.

 

[Ron Mexico]

That narrative doesn't make any sense to me. BATFE is a federal agency, not a state agency. So why do state politics matter in prosecuting a crime? It is possible Utah has been delegated enforcement authority over certain laws but I haven't heard of anything like that with BATFE.

Because crimes are punished on the state level. They work hand in hand with local authorities and prosecutors.

 

[RandyForRubio]

And just so are aware and educated, this guy was shooting at what, 600 yards?

You're going to see people getting shot and blood flowing before you hear the shot, no matter how loud the rifle. General rule, higher powered rifle will probably (not always) have a higher muzzle velocity. That bullet is gonna hit before you hear it. Even if suppressors did completely silence a rifle (they don't, at least not ones any civilian could buy) you wouldn't need to hear it to know what's going on. Between people getting shot and muzzle flashes, you have a good idea of what's going on.

 

[RandyForRubio]

You realize that silencers do not completely muffle the sound of the shot right? They only lessen it somewhat. An AR 15 with a silencer is still pretty damn loud. Not to mention using them in rapid succession wears them out very quickly. In this case it would have done next to nothing and might have even saved lives. The silencer would have warped and then it would explode in his face within the first few minutes.

The latter part of your statement is false. Unless it's a really crappy homemade one, and then you're probably not even getting one shot.

 

[Ron Mexico]

No one has said that to my knowledge in here. I still don't think they are necessary. I own some semi auto guns but they are not needed for hunting. I almost never use my semi auto shotgun because I prefer my pump action and it's reliability.

Just because you can't stop everything such as 3d printed guns that doesn't mean you can't stop other things that will slow down gun deaths. That's a slippery slope argument. But that logic we shouldn't regulate guns at all or any weapon including military grade.

We can't stop car crashes so we might as well take down all stop signs and not regulate cars at all. Might as well stop making people register cars because some people don't.

 

[RandyForRubio]

No one has said that to my knowledge in here. I still don't think they are necessary. I own some semi auto guns but they are not needed for hunting. I almost never use my semi auto shotgun because I prefer my pump action and it's reliability.

Just because you can't stop everything such as 3d printed guns that doesn't mean you can't stop other things that will slow down gun deaths. That's a slippery slope argument. But that logic we shouldn't regulate guns at all or any weapon including military grade.

We can't stop car crashes so we might as well take down all stop signs and not regulate cars at all. Might as well stop making people register cars because some people don't.

You said your take away is that semi autos should be banned. So you said it.

I think that would be an ineffective measure. Ban these mods, limit magazine sizes, maybe that will help, maybe.

And if I'm hunting coyotes or wolves, those such things, I much prefer to have a semi-auto. But I wouldn't let a kid use one. Common sense and guns goes a long ways.

 

[Ron Mexico]

I can support back ground checks on all gun purchases and the blocking of full auto mods.

I do not support the outlawing of semi auto weapons.

Also at what point does a criminal that has served his time stop paying for his crime? Also what crimes should count for that? It's far to broad to just support that outright for me.

I understand not wanting to ban semi automatic guns. Many people use them for hunting including myself but I don't think they are necessary and are too easy to modify. Maybe better enforcement of the current laws banning modifications and going after people and companies who make them would be enough. I don't know. Probably the right step is to start taking small steps and see. I don't know.

Better enforcement of felons with guns would be enough for me. I don't know about length of time, it is complicated. But I think a reasonable system could be put in place. Yes, some people might get screwed a little but I think it would be worth it.

Ultimately I think if the world was perfect everyone could own a gun and no regulation would be needed. Unfortunately we are at the point where people's rights might have to be restricted because too many people can't handle those rights and the rest of us might have to minorly suffer.

 

[fishonjazz]

Just to clarify here, you would certainly hear a .223 (I'm assuming that's what he used) with a suppressor on.

Doesn't distance from the shooter have an effect on whether you would hear it or not? (To his point of a suppressor giving a psycho more shots from a distance before anyone realizes what's going, not the earplugs issue)

 

[fishonjazz]

You're going to see people getting shot and blood flowing before you hear the shot, no matter how loud the rifle.

Would that be true if you were at a concert in the bathroom or something when the shooting began?

What if the shooter missed with his first shots? Would be nice to have a better chance to hear those shots and get moving rather than just stand there and wait to see someone bleeding I would think.

I think what Cappy_Smurf was saying is that a suppressor could make a shooter more dangerous. I tend to think that is true even if the gun isn't "silent." Quiter>louder for the shooter it would seem to me. Though stoked brought up an interesting point about the suppressor malfunctioning and maybe hurting the shooter.

 

[RandyForRubio]

Doesn't distance from the shooter have an effect on whether you would hear it or not? (To his point of a suppressor giving a psycho more shots from a distance before anyone realizes what's going, not the earplugs issue)

Sure. Not enough to make an impact. You're overestimating how much a suppressor muffles.

If a guy is shooting at me from 800 yards, I'm feeling pretty safe. That's a really hard shot.

 

[RandyForRubio]

Would that be true if you were at a concert in the bathroom or something when the shooting began?

What if the shooter missed with his first shots? Would be nice to have a better chance to hear those shots and get moving rather than just stand there and wait to see someone bleeding I would think.

I think what Cappy_Smurf was saying is that a suppressor could make a shooter more dangerous. I tend to think that is true even if the gun isn't "silent." Quiter>louder for the shooter it would seem to me. Though stoked brought up an interesting point about the suppressor malfunctioning and maybe hurting the shooter.

Even after it being mentioned dozens of times, you've never taken the time to figure out what a strawmsn theory is, have you?

 

[RandyForRubio]

Fish - Yeah, but what if a giant dragon cane out and shot bullets from its mouth? What would you do then?

 

[fishonjazz]

Fish - Yeah, but what if a giant dragon cane out and shot bullets from its mouth? What would you do then?

Are you saying that I presented a scenario that doesn't happen in real life?
I'm betting someone was using the bathroom at that concert when the shooting started.

I'm trying have conversation and pick your brain for info and your opinion.

You, be a dick.
I will go back to not engaging with you.

 

[LogGrad98]

Gun shows allow people to pretend to be private seller while setting up booths and selling guns in mass. If they were to do this in another setting it would be illegal because they would need a business license. Private selling outside of gun shows has its own issues possibly but gun shows allow bigger issues. They allow people to sell at rates like a gun dealer but follow the laws of a private seller.

I actually had a long talk with an ATF agent again last night. I changed my mind slightly on a couple issues but also reinforced some things I thought. I'll have to post when I have a little more time later today. Gun shows are one of the things we discussed and the problems they present.

Doesn't distance from the shooter have an effect on whether you would hear it or not? (To his point of a suppressor giving a psycho more shots from a distance before anyone realizes what's going, not the earplugs issue)

Generally from a rifle, at a distance you hear the crack of the bullet breaking the sound barrier near you, then you hear the actual boom of the rifle from further off. The time between these events depends on distance from the shooter. Also, you may not hear the bullet if it has dropped to sub-sonic speeds by the time it gets to you.

I have heard this before, while deer-hunting. I was on a hill side and a bunch of idiot hunters came up on a ridge across the valley from me. They were riding their 4-wheelers (4- willers for you utahns) and making a ton of noise, hence they scared up some deer. The deer ran right between us and they started firing willy-nilly. I ducked behind a tree because I didn't wnat to die right then, and I could hear cracking that I thought was the bullet hitting branches but the area it was coming from had little foliage. I surmised later it was the sound of the tiny sonic boom from the bullets as they neared my position. To finish off the story, none of them hit anything I refrained from returning fire, showing great self-restraint.

 

[RandyForRubio]

Are you saying that I presented a scenario that doesn't happen in real life?
I'm betting someone was using the bathroom at that concert when the shooting started.

I'm trying have conversation and pick your brain for info and your opinion.

You, be a dick.
I will go back to not engaging with you.

Anybody can find random inane situations to fit their viewpoint. It's not worth discussing. You have a habit of perpetually doing this, and then when called on it, you throw a hissy fit. It would be well worth your time to figure out why you aren't bringing forth much of an argument. And you can call it asking questions, but anybody with a brain can see that you're bringing forth very biased "questions" that try to lead to your conclusion that you've already made. And pointing it out isn't being a dick, it's just somebody actually being honest with you. Don't be so sensitive.

To answer you though, if I walk out of a bathroom and see bodies lying on the ground, I can get a pretty good idea that I should go back in the bathroom and wait it out. And even if he missed, you would still hear it! You could still see the bullet hit something! It doesn't just disappear.

 

[BabyPeterzz]

This thread just turned into what equates to a world of warcraft forum. you ****ing nerds.

 

[fishonjazz]

Anybody can find random inane situations to fit their viewpoint. It's not worth discussing. You have a habit of perpetually doing this, and then when called on it, you throw a hissy fit. It would be well worth your time to figure out why you aren't bringing forth much of an argument. And you can call it asking questions, but anybody with a brain can see that you're bringing forth very biased "questions" that try to lead to your conclusion that you've already made. And pointing it out isn't being a dick, it's just somebody actually being honest with you. Don't be so sensitive.

To answer you though, if I walk out of a bathroom and see bodies lying on the ground, I can get a pretty good idea that I should go back in the bathroom and wait it out. And even if he missed, you would still hear it! You could still see the bullet hit something! It doesn't just disappear.

What's inane about it?
Cappy_Smurf was saying that a suppressor could help a shooter kill more people. I'm confident that real life common scenarios exist when that would be the case.
Agree to disagree.
I said nothing about imaginary beings or magic or anything like that. I will wait and see if you offer up an apology. Doubtful though.

You talked awhile back about you want people to disagree with you cause that's how you learn and grow blah blah blah.

I ask you some simple questions to figure out why you think the way you do and get treated like **** for it.

 

[fishonjazz]

To answer you though, if I walk out of a bathroom and see bodies lying on the ground, I can get a pretty good idea that I should go back in the bathroom and wait it out.

Do you think that maybe if you were in a bathroom and thought you might hear gun shots outside that you maybe would stay in the bathroom or at least exit the bathroom in a more careful way?
I think I would.