Las Vegas: Worst Mass Shooting in US History

[Stoked]

This. Our empathy, as limited as it really is from a "mob mentality" standpoint (the Men in Black line "the person is smart, but 'people' are stupid"), has really been eroding. The constant influx of this kind of media, along with the ability to add to our superiority complexes through our "anonymous" fake online lives, has, imo, desensitized us to the suffering of others by and large. We are much more inclined to get our jabs in so we can be "right" in our fake online lives than worry about the fact that someone else is suffering for us to get our validation.

This.

A woman from my town died, a co-workers daughter was a first responder (she's ok) and my ex brother in law was there and while he is OK he was next to a woman who took a round to the head.

People are messed up, in many cases for ever, over this. Yes they deserve an intensive investigation and the effort needed to try and prevent this from happening again. They also deserve some time to digest what the hell just happened to them.

I saw very little immediate shot taking on the JCF but on social media and in general it was disgusting. From the right and the left. Some hateful people out there. It only re-enforces my stance that something is wrong, fatally, with our society.

 

[franklin]

Yes, several of the weapons that appeared to have the most rounds fired were equipped with bump stocks. And otherwise there was no way to get the bursts of fire heard on the multitude of videos out there now.

I have never heard of bump stocks. It is insane that they are legal. I mean, I want one and am going to buy a couple, but legislation should have already outlawed them. I don't know why the NRA isn't ahead of the curve on stuff like this. How much good will would they receive from pushing for outlawing these kind of devices while still pushing 2nd rights? Even the republican senators are now leading D. Senator Feinstein's charge to outlaw these things in response to this event (don't tell Thriller, he'll probably have a cognitive dissonance breakdown over that news).

 

[Gameface]

Gun shows allow people to pretend to be private seller while setting up booths and selling guns in mass. If they were to do this in another setting it would be illegal because they would need a business license. Private selling outside of gun shows has its own issues possibly but gun shows allow bigger issues. They allow people to sell at rates like a gun dealer but follow the laws of a private seller.

I actually had a long talk with an ATF agent again last night. I changed my mind slightly on a couple issues but also reinforced some things I thought. I'll have to post when I have a little more time later today. Gun shows are one of the things we discussed and the problems they present.

Right, and the fix is to require background checks on all private party sales.

There are many other completely legit ways to sell guns private party to private party besides gun shows.

KSL no longer allows it, but I've sold somewhere around 6 guns through KSL. I also sold a gun to another member of Jazzfanz. No background checks.

The solution is to require private parties to go to a licensed gun dealer (or at a gun show there will be several of them on hand) both parties pay for a background check, the buyer pays the transfer fee (FFLs usually charge to facilitate gun transfers).

I bought a gun from an online gun selling site, much like ebay, but for guns. It was from an out of state seller. It was transferred to Doug's Shoot'n Sport, where I had to do a background check and pay the fee, which was something like $35.

Way back when I was 19 I wanted to buy my first gun, a Ruger 10-22. I went to Doug's Shoot'n Sport and tried to buy one. My DL was expired so I was denied. I thought, aha! gun show is in town this weekend, I've heard how it's just a free-for-all and I'll be able to get a gun there. I paid to get into the gun show, I tried to buy a gun there, each time I was denied because I had an expired DL and therefore couldn't get the background check done, which every booth I went to had to do because they were all FFL holders. Never was I offered an alternative. Never did I find a booth run by a private seller. It was all FFLs running the booths as far as I could tell. It didn't have to be, but in my experience that's what it was. I left, no gun, having paid to get in and mostly finding beanie-babies and beef jerky, and a bunch of crap guns no one would sell me. And the guns were every bit as expensive as anything I could find at a gun store.

 

[RandyForRubio]

Gun shows allow people to pretend to be private seller while setting up booths and selling guns in mass. If they were to do this in another setting it would be illegal because they would need a business license. Private selling outside of gun shows has its own issues possibly but gun shows allow bigger issues. They allow people to sell at rates like a gun dealer but follow the laws of a private seller.

I actually had a long talk with an ATF agent again last night. I changed my mind slightly on a couple issues but also reinforced some things I thought. I'll have to post when I have a little more time later today. Gun shows are one of the things we discussed and the problems they present.

I take it you've never heard of Armslist.

 

[franklin]

Right, and the fix is to require background checks on all private party sales.

There are many other completely legit ways to sell guns private party to private party besides gun shows.

KSL no longer allows it, but I've sold somewhere around 6 guns through KSL. I also sold a gun to another member of Jazzfanz. No background checks.

The solution is to require private parties to go to a licensed gun dealer (or at a gun show there will be several of them on hand) both parties pay for a background check, the buyer pays the transfer fee (FFLs usually charge to facilitate gun transfers).

I bought a gun from an online gun selling site, much like ebay, but for guns. It was from an out of state seller. It was transferred to Doug's Shoot'n Sport, where I had to do a background check and pay the fee, which was something like $35.

Way back when I was 19 I wanted to buy my first gun, a Ruger 10-22. I went to Doug's Shoot'n Sport and tried to buy one. My DL was expired so I was denied. I thought, aha! gun show is in town this weekend, I've heard how it's just a free-for-all and I'll be able to get a gun there. I paid to get into the gun show, I tried to buy a gun there, each time I was denied because I had an expired DL and therefore couldn't get the background check done, which every booth I went to had to do because they were all FFL holders. Never was I offered an alternative. Never did I find a booth run by a private seller. It was all FFLs running the booths as far as I could tell. It didn't have to be, but in my experience that's what it was. I left, no gun, having paid to get in and mostly finding beanie-babies and beef jerky, and a bunch of crap guns no one would sell me. And the guns were every bit as expensive as anything I could find at a gun store.

I think private purchases should be regulated with the same scrutiny as well as a discussion revolving around some sort of annual or bi-biennial certification course for owners of Ar-15's, AK's, etc. I understand your stance on them not being any more efficient for assault (I'd use another method if I were a psycho) but they tend to be the go to weapon of these terrorists so something needs to be discussed if for no other reason than to sooth those who don't understand gun culture.

 

[Gameface]

I think private purchases should be regulated with the same scrutiny as well as a discussion revolving around some sort of annual or bi-biennial certification course for owners of Ar-15's, AK's, etc. I understand your stance on them not being any more efficient for assault (I'd use another method if I were a psycho) but they tend to be the go to weapon of these terrorists so something needs to be discussed if for no other reason than to sooth those who don't understand gun culture.

I'm with you, except that I don't see why we limit the certification to just those guns. Maybe do it for all semi-autos or all semi-auto rifles, no need to be model specific.

 

[RandyForRubio]

Right, and the fix is to require background checks on all private party sales.

There are many other completely legit ways to sell guns private party to private party besides gun shows.

KSL no longer allows it, but I've sold somewhere around 6 guns through KSL. I also sold a gun to another member of Jazzfanz. No background checks.

The solution is to require private parties to go to a licensed gun dealer (or at a gun show there will be several of them on hand) both parties pay for a background check, the buyer pays the transfer fee (FFLs usually charge to facilitate gun transfers).

I bought a gun from an online gun selling site, much like ebay, but for guns. It was from an out of state seller. It was transferred to Doug's Shoot'n Sport, where I had to do a background check and pay the fee, which was something like $35.

Way back when I was 19 I wanted to buy my first gun, a Ruger 10-22. I went to Doug's Shoot'n Sport and tried to buy one. My DL was expired so I was denied. I thought, aha! gun show is in town this weekend, I've heard how it's just a free-for-all and I'll be able to get a gun there. I paid to get into the gun show, I tried to buy a gun there, each time I was denied because I had an expired DL and therefore couldn't get the background check done, which every booth I went to had to do because they were all FFL holders. Never was I offered an alternative. Never did I find a booth run by a private seller. It was all FFLs running the booths as far as I could tell. It didn't have to be, but in my experience that's what it was. I left, no gun, having paid to get in and mostly finding beanie-babies and beef jerky, and a bunch of crap guns no one would sell me. And the guns were every bit as expensive as anything I could find at a gun store.

Gun shows have the worst deals.

I'd rather go to a store and deal with warranties, scope mounting, etc.

 

[LogGrad98]

Gun shows allow people to pretend to be private seller while setting up booths and selling guns in mass. If they were to do this in another setting it would be illegal because they would need a business license. Private selling outside of gun shows has its own issues possibly but gun shows allow bigger issues. They allow people to sell at rates like a gun dealer but follow the laws of a private seller.

I actually had a long talk with an ATF agent again last night. I changed my mind slightly on a couple issues but also reinforced some things I thought. I'll have to post when I have a little more time later today. Gun shows are one of the things we discussed and the problems they present.

Yeah right. I have a hard time buying into your conspiracy theory that the BATFE turns a complete blind eye to gun shows. If I were a gambling man I would bet they have a special task force that targets them with even closer scrutiny.

If I had to bet on it, I would bet that the reality falls somewhere in the middle. We already know that the Columbine shooters got some of their weapons through gun show contacts, both legally and under the table. And I do not think the laws in this regard have changed much since then that would stop any under the table shenanigans. I think there is probably more covert action going on than we would expect given the rules at play, although it probably doesn't reach the level of a conspiracy. But to assert that literally every person peddling arms at a gun show is completely on the up and up is hugely naive imo.

 

[Ron Mexico]

Yeah right. I have a hard time buying into your conspiracy theory that the BATFE turns a complete blind eye to gun shows. If I were a gambling man I would bet they have a special task force that targets them with even closer scrutiny.

Um, not sure how that is your take away. I did not say they turn a blind eye. I pointed out a problem with the law.

But on that subject the ATF agent I spoke with did mention that they do go into gun shows but the scope of what they can do is limited based on what the state will prosecute. He mentioned multiple times that Utah considers itself a "gun state" and does not want to jeopardize by prosecuting anything that isnt cut and dry against the law. They also dont want to be seen as attacking gun rights in Utah. He mentioned that they could make more arrests at gun shows because there are plenty of illegal things they see happening but they are not being prosecuted.

After talking to him fully auto guns do seem like less of a big deal. He said they do run into them in an illegal fashion but not that often. They are concerned about people making their own through smelting and 3d printers but that is another issue. 3D printers are becoming concerning for them since people can make untraceable guns at home now. They are very concerned about semi auto guns being converted and it is a bid deal in Utah and they have multiple people and companies making things like the bumper stock.

Again the big issue is that it is illegal to convert your own gun but that is not pursued in Utah very often. They also never go after people making the modification kits even though they feel as agents it is illegal. He said Utah does not want to set precedence with pursuing prosecution. He said they are working a large case right now of someone making these modification kits but the state wont charge them. They were hoping that the bumper stock used in the Vegas shooting would have come from this person/case so that they could use the outrage to get the state to go after them. It was not though.

He said that the most dense area for guns illegally sold/bought in Utah is the area around the homeless shelter in SLC. It is a haven for that apparently. Although the big crack down in that area has probably slowed it down.

He was of the opinion that until our culture in the West shifts away from being a gun culture very few law changes will make a big deal. He does hope Utah will be more aggressive with it current laws but doubts that it will happen. He did also mention that most agents in his department and the FBI which he is transitioning to so he can be allowed to do cyber crime stuff are fairly conservative and that most offices have fox news playing all the time.

He also mentioned that punishments in Utah are not that harsh. He said if he caught a felon with an illegal gun that the max sentence would be less than 3 years. But if he had crack on him instead it would probably be closer to 7-10 years. He said most of the time people break laws with guns it is not pursued that heavily unless it is in combination with another crime.

My take away was that Semi Auto should be banned and we should be going after companies or individuals making modification kits.

 

[Ron Mexico]

I take it you've never heard of Armslist.

I have, its another things that should be shut down with a law change.

 

[Ron Mexico]

Brief, in a hurry, but let me see if I can get more to the point. Can you show me causation and correlation within a cultural context? Crime has been declining generally across the board in the Western world.

I've also agreed with much of what you have said whether you care to recognize that or not.

I want to see causation before calling this over.

No I cannot show causation but that is almost impossible to show. What we can show is that there is enough evidence to look into it or maybe even try it.

Crime is declining and that is why the homicide statistics are questionable is relation to the law changes. What we do know is that suicides fell by around 70%. So that seems fairly definitive. Mass shootings went from about 1 a year to none since. Mass killings were greatly reduced, although there have been a few.

I think the stats that give even more evidence to reducing gun ownership in some way is the correlation between states with more gun ownership and more gun deaths. There is also the fact that states with more gun control laws have less gun deaths. Again proving causation is not really possible but when you have multiple causation's pointing at the same thing it builds a strong case. It is crazy that USA has 1/2 of the worlds civilian owned guns but only 4.4% of the population. Gun ownership and gun culture is a big deal here. It is probably why our situation is unique but also why we have more problems.


Personally I think they need to make background checks for anyone who buys a gun from any source a law. I think Semi auto's should be banned and any modifications to guns to make them semi or auto should be banned. I dont think hand guns or hunting rifles should be banned but they should be traced better and people with criminal history's should not be allowed to own them.

One issue that I have pointed out before is that gun death stats also include suicide which is a much much greater number than mass shootings and a greater number than homicides. These type of stats do get abused.

One of the more sad statistics is the fact that states with more gun ownership's have more police shot in duty than states with less guns. It seems like if we want to protect out policeman we should limit gun ownership more.

 

[Stoked]

No I cannot show causation but that is almost impossible to show. What we can show is that there is enough evidence to look into it or maybe even try it.

Crime is declining and that is why the homicide statistics are questionable is relation to the law changes. What we do know is that suicides fell by around 70%. So that seems fairly definitive. Mass shootings went from about 1 a year to none since. Mass killings were greatly reduced, although there have been a few.

I think the stats that give even more evidence to reducing gun ownership in some way is the correlation between states with more gun ownership and more gun deaths. There is also the fact that states with more gun control laws have less gun deaths. Again proving causation is not really possible but when you have multiple causation's pointing at the same thing it builds a strong case. It is crazy that USA has 1/2 of the worlds civilian owned guns but only 4.4% of the population. Gun ownership and gun culture is a big deal here. It is probably why our situation is unique but also why we have more problems.


Personally I think they need to make background checks for anyone who buys a gun from any source a law. I think Semi auto's should be banned and any modifications to guns to make them semi or auto should be banned. I dont think hand guns or hunting rifles should be banned but they should be traced better and people with criminal history's should not be allowed to own them.

One issue that I have pointed out before is that gun death stats also include suicide which is a much much greater number than mass shootings and a greater number than homicides. These type of stats do get abused.

One of the more sad statistics is the fact that states with more gun ownership's have more police shot in duty than states with less guns. It seems like if we want to protect out policeman we should limit gun ownership more.

I can support back ground checks on all gun purchases and the blocking of full auto mods.

I do not support the outlawing of semi auto weapons.

Also at what point does a criminal that has served his time stop paying for his crime? Also what crimes should count for that? It's far to broad to just support that outright for me.

 

[RandyForRubio]

I have, its another things that should be shut down with a law change.

No thanks.

I've bought two really nice hunting rifles off of there. Pretty handy.

 

[RandyForRubio]

Who says a semi-auto isn't a hunting rifle?

There's a huge problem here where we have people with a limited understanding of guns.

I can get behind banning mod kits and the what not, but semi-autos? No thanks.

You can ban all this stuff, but it won't change much. Are you going to ban metal shops? Ban 3D printers? Let's at least be logical before we start taking things away.

 

[RandyForRubio]

For a detailed look at what Australia did, read this.

Includes facts on suicide, gun crime, total crime, etc.

http://faculty.publicpolicy.umd.edu/sites/default/files/reuter/files/gun chapter.pdf

 

[franklin]

Um, not sure how that is your take away. I did not say they turn a blind eye. I pointed out a problem with the law.

But on that subject the ATF agent I spoke with did mention that they do go into gun shows but the scope of what they can do is limited based on what the state will prosecute. He mentioned multiple times that Utah considers itself a "gun state" and does not want to jeopardize by prosecuting anything that isnt cut and dry against the law. They also dont want to be seen as attacking gun rights in Utah. He mentioned that they could make more arrests at gun shows because there are plenty of illegal things they see happening but they are not being prosecuted.

After talking to him fully auto guns do seem like less of a big deal. He said they do run into them in an illegal fashion but not that often. They are concerned about people making their own through smelting and 3d printers but that is another issue. 3D printers are becoming concerning for them since people can make untraceable guns at home now. They are very concerned about semi auto guns being converted and it is a bid deal in Utah and they have multiple people and companies making things like the bumper stock.

Again the big issue is that it is illegal to convert your own gun but that is not pursued in Utah very often. They also never go after people making the modification kits even though they feel as agents it is illegal. He said Utah does not want to set precedence with pursuing prosecution. He said they are working a large case right now of someone making these modification kits but the state wont charge them. They were hoping that the bumper stock used in the Vegas shooting would have come from this person/case so that they could use the outrage to get the state to go after them. It was not though.

He said that the most dense area for guns illegally sold/bought in Utah is the area around the homeless shelter in SLC. It is a haven for that apparently. Although the big crack down in that area has probably slowed it down.

He was of the opinion that until our culture in the West shifts away from being a gun culture very few law changes will make a big deal. He does hope Utah will be more aggressive with it current laws but doubts that it will happen. He did also mention that most agents in his department and the FBI which he is transitioning to so he can be allowed to do cyber crime stuff are fairly conservative and that most offices have fox news playing all the time.

He also mentioned that punishments in Utah are not that harsh. He said if he caught a felon with an illegal gun that the max sentence would be less than 3 years. But if he had crack on him instead it would probably be closer to 7-10 years. He said most of the time people break laws with guns it is not pursued that heavily unless it is in combination with another crime.

My take away was that Semi Auto should be banned and we should be going after companies or individuals making modification kits.

That narrative doesn't make any sense to me. BATFE is a federal agency, not a state agency. So why do state politics matter in prosecuting a crime? It is possible Utah has been delegated enforcement authority over certain laws but I haven't heard of anything like that with BATFE.

 

[Cappy_Smurf]

I have never heard of bump stocks. It is insane that they are legal. I mean, I want one and am going to buy a couple, but legislation should have already outlawed them. I don't know why the NRA isn't ahead of the curve on stuff like this. How much good will would they receive from pushing for outlawing these kind of devices while still pushing 2nd rights? Even the republican senators are now leading D. Senator Feinstein's charge to outlaw these things in response to this event (don't tell Thriller, he'll probably have a cognitive dissonance breakdown over that news).

The NRA is a ****ing joke. They don't represent the right to bear arms, but the right to make tons of money off of firearms.

As bad as this Vegas shooting was, it could have been a whole lot worse, had the shooter been equipped with suppressors. The shooting lasted for 10 minutes, partly because people thought it was only fireworks. Suppressors could have given this nutjob 2 or 3 times longer to shoot at people who would have had no idea anything was happening.

And guess who is currently supporting legislation to make suppressors legal to everyone? That's right, the NRA. Why you say? the answer is $$$$$. Stop supporting the NRA. They are a ****ing sham.

This whole thing is being sold as hearing protection. You know, because it's too much trouble to put ear plugs in. Never mind the potential abuses that would come with being able to shoot people without anyone hearing a shot.

 

[Cappy_Smurf]

Way back when I was 19 I wanted to buy my first gun, a Ruger 10-22. I went to Doug's Shoot'n Sport and tried to buy one. My DL was expired so I was denied. I thought, aha! gun show is in town this weekend, I've heard how it's just a free-for-all and I'll be able to get a gun there. I paid to get into the gun show, I tried to buy a gun there, each time I was denied because I had an expired DL and therefore couldn't get the background check done, which every booth I went to had to do because they were all FFL holders. Never was I offered an alternative. Never did I find a booth run by a private seller. It was all FFLs running the booths as far as I could tell. It didn't have to be, but in my experience that's what it was. I left, no gun, having paid to get in and mostly finding beanie-babies and beef jerky, and a bunch of crap guns no one would sell me. And the guns were every bit as expensive as anything I could find at a gun store.

I've been going to gun shows for about 35 years, and I've always been able to buy guns without a check. Yes, there are a lot of dealers there who have to abide by the rules, but there are also tons of private sellers. I don't know why you managed to find a gun show with no private sellers, but it's definitely not the norm. In fact, this is the first I've ever heard of someone being unable to find private sellers at a gun show. I'm guessing maybe you were looking for something specific? If you go looking for a specific gun, I could see not being able to find it except through a dealer.

 

[Gameface]

I've been going to gun shows for about 35 years, and I've always been able to buy guns without a check. Yes, there are a lot of dealers there who have to abide by the rules, but there are also tons of private sellers. I don't know why you managed to find a gun show with no private sellers, but it's definitely not the norm. In fact, this is the first I've ever heard of someone being unable to find private sellers at a gun show. I'm guessing maybe you were looking for something specific? If you go looking for a specific gun, I could see not being able to find it except through a dealer.

Yes, I was looking for a Ruger 10-22 in reasonably good condition. That very well could have been why I couldn't find anything. And this was one of 2 gun show experiences for me and it was over 20 years ago.

There is almost nothing I'd rather avoid than paying to get into a gun show. I'd rather go to a nick-knack festival with my old aunt Gertrude and get matching butterfly face paint on our cheeks.

 

[Cappy_Smurf]

Yes, I was looking for a Ruger 10-22 in reasonably good condition. That very well could have been why I couldn't find anything. And this was one of 2 gun show experiences for me and it was over 20 years ago.

There is almost nothing I'd rather avoid than paying to get into a gun show. I'd rather go to a nick-knack festival with my old aunt Gertrude and get matching butterfly face paint on our cheeks.

There can be a pretty big variance in gun shows. The smaller ones mostly suck, but going to one of the bigger ones can be pretty cool. Some private sellers have collections of old guns that aren't for sale, but put them on display. It's kind of like going to a museum.