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Rudy Gobert has got to go

Piso said:
Stats +/- (82 games.com) (only the 20 most used compositions) (november 12) :
Rubio-Favors-Gobert : 203 min ; rating : -69 disastrous
Rubio-Favors : 163 min ; rating : -33 bad
Rubio-Gobert : 68 min ; rating : +34 very good
Favors-Gobert : 21 min ; rating : +6 average
Only Rubio : 21 min ; rating : +25 excellent
Only Favors : 78 min ; rating : +15 average
Only Gobert : 13 min ; rating : +4 average
Sans Rubio/Favors/Gobert : 49 min ; rating : +45 excellent
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Sorry it was after 15 games
Update (with NBA.com) after 27 games and 1301 min (1OT) :
Utah Jazz scores : 2783-2698 (+85)
Rubio-Favors-Gobert : 226 min ; rating : -75,5
Rubio-Favors : 269,3 min ; rating : +17,1
Rubio-Gobert : 147,2 min ; rating : +19,9
Favors-Gobert : 36,8 min ; rating : +23,8
Only Rubio : 107,3 min ; rating : +10,9
Only Favors : 216,3 min ; rating : +75,3
Only Gobert : 98,6 min ; rating : -23,6
Sans Rubio/Favors/Gobert : 199,5 min ; rating : +37,4
 
Good lord the bickering.

We just lost a good player who was an unrestricted free agent. Why the hell trade Gobert then risk losing Favors for nothing.

Just. Trade. Favors.

Sent from my VS995 using JazzFanz mobile app
 
sahlensguy said:
Even when Rudy was firing on all cylinders and when the schedule wasn't so tough, has there ever been an extended offensive output with him on the court, as we saw in November? Obviously some of the players have changed, but the fluid way the offense was running in November is undeniable. How much Rudy and his absence is related to the output is debatable, but I'm sure it had at least some effect. In November, Favors was engaged and held up to the Deandre Jordan's of the NBA just fine when going solo. The contract situation of Favors and Rudy points to Gobert remaining with the team over Favors though.
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It was fully obvious that the offense played much better but the defense lacked the Gobert factor. Other teams attacked and scored on Favors in ways that Gobert clearly would have stopped. And Favors is a good rim protector. Gobert's defense is insane and he is mildly worse than Favors in the PnR.

Trading Gobert would be an option if there were any confidence in Favors' health. Gobert's our best asset and would fetch a great return in the right scenario. DL isn't going to find that perfect scenario.
 
I never thought I'd see the day when Jazz fans would want to trade Rudy Gobert a year after an All-NBA season just as he's entering his prime and locked up for 4 years. I just can't believe how short sighted you have to be to look at that cupcake stretch of only six games with GOAT shooting performances from Ingles/Mitchell/Jerebko/Burks and think that Rudy was the weak link all along lol. We truly have some really uneducated basketball fans. Luckily for all of the rest of us Gobert isn't going anywhere. Our best hope is a trade that frees up Quin to have an easy decision to make about a good lineup for Rudy and Mitchell to thrive.
 
LoPo said:
Good lord the bickering.

We just lost a good player who was an unrestricted free agent. Why the hell trade Gobert then risk losing Favors for nothing.

Just. Trade. Favors.

Sent from my VS995 using JazzFanz mobile app
Click to expand...

I agree with this to some extent. If they were both under contract for the same amount of time then I think there is some debate. But Favors is unrestricted at the end of the year.

The Jazz either need to decide he is apart of their future and can play with Rudy and make sure Favors wants to stay or trade him at the deadline. Unless a great trade comes up earlier we are not trading him until then though.

Frankly I think the team is not committed to Favors anymore either due to him wanting to move on due to his role or not liking the fit for some reason. I really like Favors but I am leaning towards him getting traded. But I might change my mind again once we get a fully healthy team and see what they can do. Favors and Gobert have not really played much together this season and have hardly played together without Rubio. Frankly Rubio and Gobert have not played together much to get things going. It takes a good 20+ games to get rythym together according to many players and they have not had that. We also have not had Hood to help with a lot of our offensive problems.

I would really like to see Mitchell Hood Inlges Favors and Gobert play a decent amount together and see what they can do. Favors and Gobert can play together and have proven that over the last few years over and over. They either need to play together without Rubio, need more time together with Rubio to get chemistry, need a shooting PG, or stagger them for now and plan on trading Favors at the deadline if a somewhat reasonable deal come in.
 
Quin's Murderface said:
I never thought I'd see the day when Jazz fans would want to trade Rudy Gobert a year after an All-NBA season just as he's entering his prime and locked up for 4 years. I just can't believe how short sighted you have to be to look at that cupcake stretch of only six games with GOAT shooting performances from Ingles/Mitchell/Jerebko/Burks and think that Rudy was the weak link all along lol. We truly have some really uneducated basketball fans. Luckily for all of the rest of us Gobert isn't going anywhere. Our best hope is a trade that frees up Quin to have an easy decision to make about a good lineup for Rudy and Mitchell to thrive.
Click to expand...

I agree, but this board is all over the place after every win or loss. We have a lot of roller coaster fans.

Frankly I would consider trading any of our players at any time depending on the trade. But no team is going to offer their franchise player for Gobert and that is what it would take for me to be okay with trading him.

So, no there isnt much of a reason to discuss trading Gobert. Unless the he is unhappy and wants out, which does not appear to be the case. We do need to get him healthy and playing well again though.
 
Obviously the thread title is ridiculous. At the same time, the Gobert homerism often goes too far here. It'd be nice if people could at least admit that there are times where he appears to make the offense significantly worse.
 
Spinoza said:
Obviously the thread title is ridiculous. At the same time, the Gobert homerism often goes too far here. It'd be nice if people could at least admit that there are times where he appears to make the offense significantly worse.
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I admit that there are times when he makes the offense worse.
I think there are times when every player on the team makes the offense wrose though.
 
Are there any stats geeks that can make sense of this? Gobert has a terrific offensive rating and offensive win shares. However, his offensive box plus/minus is pretty poor. What does that mean?

edit: I'm interpreting is as his offensive efficiency numbers are good, but the team as a whole doesn't do great offensively with him on the floor. I'm not sure if this is a good interpretation though.
 
Piso said:
Stats +/- (82 games.com) (only the 20 most used compositions) (november 12) :
Rubio-Favors-Gobert : 203 min ; rating : -69 disastrous
Rubio-Favors : 163 min ; rating : -33 bad
Rubio-Gobert : 68 min ; rating : +34 very good
Favors-Gobert : 21 min ; rating : +6 average
Only Rubio : 21 min ; rating : +25 excellent
Only Favors : 78 min ; rating : +15 average
Only Gobert : 13 min ; rating : +4 average
Sans Rubio/Favors/Gobert : 49 min ; rating : +45 excellent
Click to expand...

Be really careful drawing conclusions from this. For example, Jazz are +45 without Rubio, Favors, or Gobert. Have to trade all three then right? Except those minutes are probably entirely in garbage time when the outcome of the game is already decided and the scrubs from the other team are in. These stats don't into account opponent quality (of individual matchups or as a whole), whether the game was a back-to-back, whether or not Mitchell was having an awesome night or laying bricks, etc... Honestly, I'd say they're pretty much worthless. I seriously doubt any analytics groups at the professional level would take them seriously.
 
Quin's Murderface said:
I never thought I'd see the day when Jazz fans would want to trade Rudy Gobert a year after an All-NBA season just as he's entering his prime and locked up for 4 years. I just can't believe how short sighted you have to be to look at that cupcake stretch of only six games with GOAT shooting performances from Ingles/Mitchell/Jerebko/Burks and think that Rudy was the weak link all along lol. We truly have some really uneducated basketball fans. Luckily for all of the rest of us Gobert isn't going anywhere. Our best hope is a trade that frees up Quin to have an easy decision to make about a good lineup for Rudy and Mitchell to thrive.
Click to expand...
To be fair, I think people are looking at the times he has played more than the cupcake stretch he didn't.
 
Quin's Murderface said:
The times he played like last year when he was All-NBA 2nd team? When he was top 10 in most advanced stats? Or the small stretch of games where he was forced to play in a lineup with no spacing at the beginning of this season?
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His stats, across the board, are down this year.

According to NBA statistics, very few centers peak after the 25 years of age in the NBA and their 4th year in the NBA. I remember discussing this with Zombie earlier this year (I thought players peaked much later, but boy was I wrong, especially with centers.) We may have seen the best Gobert already. Just something else to think about. He shouldn't be untouchable. It's bizarre this boards thinks of him as a top 5 or even 10 player in the NBA.
 
Archie Moses said:
His stats, across the board, are down this year.

According to NBA statistics, very few centers peak after the 25 years of age in the NBA and their 4th year in the NBA. I remember discussing this with Zombie earlier this year (I thought players peaked much later, but boy was I wrong, especially with centers.) We may have seen the best Gobert already. Just something else to think about. He shouldn't be untouchable. It's bizarre this boards thinks of him as a top 5 or even 10 player in the NBA.
Click to expand...

His stats were marginally down this year early on and you aren't addressing that he is playing in a lineup that is terrible for him offensively. He was a top 10-15 player last season. If you don't agree with that then you argue against a ton of evidence. Even disregarding the peak argument which I think is pretty dubious and unsourced, If what we saw last season was sustainable for another 4 years then he should be untradeable. What we have this season is the team completely changing the pieces around him (going from 4 shooters to 2 shooters, and from a primary PnR partner that was a threat to score to one that isn't at all) and leading to teams doubling and shading to him instead of even guarding two other guys most of the time. That's just not a rational way to build a team around him offensively. We've already seen the configuration that works. 4 shooters, 1 being a stretch 4 of some kind, and Rudy.
 
feeko said:
Before anyone bites my head off, hear me out...

I used to be the biggest Gobert fan. Great defensive presence, passion, etc. Now that he was injured for a couple games and back, you can really see how much better the jazz play without him on the floor.

While he was injured the jazz were scoring in triple digits every night and blowing teams away by 15+ points, since he has been back we've been losing.

It's so clear to see. When he's in the game, the jazz struggle offesnively, he's so big that he clogs the middle. when he has the ball he has no finess and zero fundamental skills for a big man. without him the offense seems fluid, efficient, fast, fun to watch. with him in the game slows down, these days the nba doesn't use big man like when we had malone and mark eaton.

i really also saw favors shine at center while gobert was out. what do you all think? i know we could have beat the past 3 teams if gobert was out, i know it.

thanks fellow jazz brothers and sisters. Go Jazz
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1. Basketball games are not zero-sum affairs. We played teams with low defensive ratings. Playing a hapless team is not the same as playing a non-hapless team. GMs don't make these decisions based on small and uneven sample size.
2. Gobert is a phenomenal young player with even more room to improve, a virtual lock to be a perennial DPOY candidate.
3. Gobert is locked in with a solid contract. Favors's fate is in his hands looking forward.
4. Consider deleting your account. :)
 
Archie Moses said:
His stats, across the board, are down this year.

According to NBA statistics, very few centers peak after the 25 years of age in the NBA and their 4th year in the NBA. I remember discussing this with Zombie earlier this year (I thought players peaked much later, but boy was I wrong, especially with centers.) We may have seen the best Gobert already. Just something else to think about. He shouldn't be untouchable. It's bizarre this boards thinks of him as a top 5 or even 10 player in the NBA.
Click to expand...

Virtually no player is untouchable. But your analysis is lacking and you offer no reasonable alternatives. With this and your Donovan Mitchell takes, I can no longer take you seriously and am forced to relegate you to the status of uninformed noisemaker on the forum.
 
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Spinoza said:
Are there any stats geeks that can make sense of this? Gobert has a terrific offensive rating and offensive win shares. However, his offensive box plus/minus is pretty poor. What does that mean?

edit: I'm interpreting is as his offensive efficiency numbers are good, but the team as a whole doesn't do great offensively with him on the floor. I'm not sure if this is a good interpretation though.
Click to expand...

He obviously can't create offense himself, so needs spacing to catch the ball and not get it stripped. He's not getting that in the current lineups.
DL might have thought Rubio was such an elite passer it would even out the poor spacing, but this has not been the case.
 
LifeOnaPlate said:
Virtually no player is untouchable. But your analysis is lacking and you offer no reasonable alternatives. With this and your Donovan Mitchel takes, I can no longer take you seriously and am forced to relegate you to the status of uninformed noisemaker on the forum.
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I offer no reasonable alternative because I don't like playing GM. I offered reasons as to why he could be considered tradable. To some, apparently, this hurts their feelings and is offensive. It's probably the same people that were offended when I said Mitchell couldn't shoot during the first 10 games of the season and struggled against NBA starters. I'm assuming you're one of these people.
You can negate my status, I don't care. You are a nobody to me. I'd rather you provide sustance and discussion as to why Gobert shouldn't be considered in trade talks rather than flaunt your ego and knowledge of the game. I've at least provided reasons that support my argument. So tell me, who's being the noisemaker?

Debate me, brah.

Hehepeepeecaca
 
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Quin's Murderface said:
His stats were marginally down this year early on and you aren't addressing that he is playing in a lineup that is terrible for him offensively. He was a top 10-15 player last season. If you don't agree with that then you argue against a ton of evidence. Even disregarding the peak argument which I think is pretty dubious and unsourced, If what we saw last season was sustainable for another 4 years then he should be untradeable. What we have this season is the team completely changing the pieces around him (going from 4 shooters to 2 shooters, and from a primary PnR partner that was a threat to score to one that isn't at all) and leading to teams doubling and shading to him instead of even guarding two other guys most of the time. That's just not a rational way to build a team around him offensively. We've already seen the configuration that works. 4 shooters, 1 being a stretch 4 of some kind, and Rudy.
Click to expand...
1. I have addressed this roster with Rudy and have done so multiple times.
2. I never said he wasn't a top 15 player. (But can understand arguments why he's not too.)
3. Source: (click on results to look at the centers and their peak age breakdown)
4. Since the dynamic of the team has changed so much, like you've said, then why is Rudy the undeniable one to build around? I don't think any GM would think this way. I absolutely think you can build around him just like I think they would discuss moving him if it made sense.
5. We have not seen any configuration of Rudy that takes us where we want to go. A championship.
 
Archie Moses said:
1. I have addressed this roster with Rudy and have done so multiple times.
2. I never said he wasn't a top 15 player. (But can understand arguments why he's not too.)
3. Source: (click on results to look at the centers and their peak age breakdown)
4. Since the dynamic of the team has changed so much, like you've said, then why is Rudy the undeniable one to build around? I don't think any GM would think this way. I absolutely think you can build around him just like I think they would discuss moving him if it made sense.
5. We have not seen any configuration of Rudy that takes us where we want to go. A championship.
Click to expand...


Gobert has to remain at the upper end of the 90th percentile range on the FiveThirtyEight's Carmelo Projection to keep last season's impact up for long. His VORP is still going to be high though even if it goes into decline.
 
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