The Memo

[babe]

All I'm saying here is that Trump is the President and the economy has been recovering. To Trump supporters claiming he is the reason, I don't have an argument to tell them that he has been bad for the economy. So I give credit where it is due. Trump is the President and the economy is good.

I don't want to put myself in the camp of reality deniers.

Trump himself is not so shy about claiming credit though. I think you're being reasonable here, and there's plenty of Trump supporters who are edgy about Trump claiming credit because there are potential huge issues on the horizon... possibilities in the imaginations of all kinds of doomsayers. Dollar collapse because of China and others no longer settling trade accounts in dollar terms and huge amounts of dollars held in other national/foreign accounts being liquidated....

I think you have a good point about whoever breaks the law being held accountable. But you have been on the other side of that equation when I had my "conspiracy theorist" comments about Obama and Hillary on display. But hey, you were asking for "evidence", and that is indeed appropriate.

I think there is danger Trump might have gone amok on that himself. But it's likely he will not try it as long as the "witch hunt" as he terms the Mueller investigation is continued.....

Say, wouldn't it be a great idea to have a dogged opposition Press raging against the politicians whoever they are.....

 

[babe]

All I'm saying here is that Trump is the President and the economy has been recovering. To Trump supporters claiming he is the reason, I don't have an argument to tell them that he has been bad for the economy. So I give credit where it is due. Trump is the President and the economy is good.

I don't want to put myself in the camp of reality deniers.

Trump himself is not so shy about claiming credit though. I think you're being reasonable here, and there's plenty of Trump supporters who are edgy about Trump claiming credit because there are potential huge issues on the horizon... possibilities in the imaginations of all kinds of doomsayers. Dollar collapse because of China and others no longer settling trade accounts in dollar terms and huge amounts of dollars held in other national/foreign accounts being liquidated....

I think you have a good point about whoever breaks the law being held accountable. I think there is danger Trump might have gone amok on that himself. But it's likely he will not try it as long as the "witch hunt" as he terms the Mueller investigation is continued.....

Say, wouldn't it be a great idea to have a dogged opposition Press raging against the politicians in power whoever they are.....

 

[babe]

So I found the short-form Memo on InfoWars:

https://www.infowars.com/memo-released-developing/

I skimmed through it. I think I've heard every salient point on the radio "Press".... nothing said on the programs hosted by Levin, Hannity, Wilkow or Rush that I have heard is in any way inconsistent.

@Red was in here in May of 2016 with a thread about Trump/Russian collusion, which he said at that time would be the big story. However, Senator Sessions doing routine hospitality for Russian officials interested in speaking with American politicians..... for which Sessions chose to recuse himself for in any investigation of the matter..... is not at issue any more.

Pres. Trump's son apparently went to dinner with some Russian, which appears now(to me) to have been a deliberate trap attempt by the folks seeking something against the Trump administration..... and which Steve Bannon called "collusion" after he was outted from the Trump camp. Bannon has been called a traitor by Trumpsters and many other Republicans, and his Breitbart News lost funding from the main promoter. I dunno.... I hate it that most of the mainsteam Press is "owned" by anyone, and that the owners choose to push their agendas...... Breitbart still has some pretty competent news anchors.
But no "deal" was actually made. The meeting fell apart and nothing came of it. Dodgey little Donny Jr. Or was it son in law.... apparently doesn't matter anymore....

So anyway, @Red, the Mother Jones article you brought here, and the Yahoo article..... were fed to the Press by a determined, totally anti-Trump schemer seeking deliberately to make up a false story against Trump.... Christopher Steele has lost any credibility he has ever had in any quarter. The dude made up fiction and sold it to Trump opponents, saying Trump must be destroyed at any cost.

Gee whiz. Doesn't anybody care about British attempts to overthrow the US Constitutional electoral process? And just why shouldn't we care about a Brit agent hiring a Russian company actually doing business for Hillary, and been paid huge sums to produce deliberate salacious false accusations? This is not the kind of "Opposition Research" that seeks factual information on political candidates, it is outright determined production of material to falsely manipulate the American electorate.

The Russians have long held the US Dems in a more favorable light.... in the 1980s dem Senator Kennedy requested help from the Russians to defeat Reagan, promising favors in return.

yah, but in a global governance schema under UN format where our laws are essentially gonna be made by unelected corporate appointees to UN committees, and national interests set on a back burner generally, it seems strange to have globalists crying foul over international political games. Obama saw nothing wrong with outright use of US funds to try to defeat Netanyahu in the Israeli election.......

 

[Gameface]

Trump himself is not so shy about claiming credit though. I think you're being reasonable here, and there's plenty of Trump supporters who are edgy about Trump claiming credit because there are potential huge issues on the horizon... possibilities in the imaginations of all kinds of doomsayers. Dollar collapse because of China and others no longer settling trade accounts in dollar terms and huge amounts of dollars held in other national/foreign accounts being liquidated....

I think you have a good point about whoever breaks the law being held accountable. I think there is danger Trump might have gone amok on that himself. But it's likely he will not try it as long as the "witch hunt" as he terms the Mueller investigation is continued.....

Say, wouldn't it be a great idea to have a dogged opposition Press raging against the politicians in power whoever they are.....

I think it is very possible that the only thing Trump will be undeniably found guilty of is obstruction of justice. And I think it's possible he obstructed justice because he didn't really know any better and didn't see his obstruction as a crime.

If obstruction is the only thing he is found guilty of I doubt he is forced from office. I mean, I'd like him gone for whatever reason gets him gone, but I wouldn't blame our congress/senate for not using obstruction on it's own as a justification for impeachment and/or demanding he step down.

 

[Red]

I think it is very possible that the only thing Trump will be undeniably found guilty of is obstruction of justice. And I think it's possible he obstructed justice because he didn't really know any better and didn't see his obstruction as a crime.

If obstruction is the only thing he is found guilty of I doubt he is forced from office. I mean, I'd like him gone for whatever reason gets him gone, but I wouldn't blame our congress/senate for not using obstruction on it's own as a justification for impeachment and/or demanding he step down.

I find myself leaning this way often enough. But, one of the key events Mueller is looking at is the day Trump basically dictated the first lie regarding the meeting Trump Jr. had with the Russians in Trump Tower, and which they eventually found was to gain dirt on Hillary. Just one of quite a few instances by now in which Trump has acted like a man guilty of something, a reason, in other words, for obstructing Mueller's investigation, that isn't simply "I want this probe over, it's distracting from the greatness of my presidency". And I just would not yet discount what Steele's sources told him, either. Namely that Carter Page was the go-between between the Trump campaign and Putin's people. His sources spelled coordination between the two sides right out, including coordination on the release of Clinton's emails. The question is what has the FBI and Mueller been able to do to verify those particular sources for Steele?

I'm not going to be surprised if your hunch is correct, I often lean that way too. But I'm not going to be surprised at any cards Mueller may be holding close to his chest, either.

 

[Red]

So I found the short-form Memo on InfoWars:

https://www.infowars.com/memo-released-developing/

I skimmed through it. I think I've heard every salient point on the radio "Press".... nothing said on the programs hosted by Levin, Hannity, Wilkow or Rush that I have heard is in any way inconsistent.

@Red was in here in May of 2016 with a thread about Trump/Russian collusion, which he said at that time would be the big story. However, Senator Sessions doing routine hospitality for Russian officials interested in speaking with American politicians..... for which Sessions chose to recuse himself for in any investigation of the matter..... is not at issue any more.

Pres. Trump's son apparently went to dinner with some Russian, which appears now(to me) to have been a deliberate trap attempt by the folks seeking something against the Trump administration..... and which Steve Bannon called "collusion" after he was outted from the Trump camp. Bannon has been called a traitor by Trumpsters and many other Republicans, and his Breitbart News lost funding from the main promoter. I dunno.... I hate it that most of the mainsteam Press is "owned" by anyone, and that the owners choose to push their agendas...... Breitbart still has some pretty competent news anchors.
But no "deal" was actually made. The meeting fell apart and nothing came of it. Dodgey little Donny Jr. Or was it son in law.... apparently doesn't matter anymore....

So anyway, @Red, the Mother Jones article you brought here, and the Yahoo article..... were fed to the Press by a determined, totally anti-Trump schemer seeking deliberately to make up a false story against Trump.... Christopher Steele has lost any credibility he has ever had in any quarter. The dude made up fiction and sold it to Trump opponents, saying Trump must be destroyed at any cost.

Gee whiz. Doesn't anybody care about British attempts to overthrow the US Constitutional electoral process? And just why shouldn't we care about a Brit agent hiring a Russian company actually doing business for Hillary, and been paid huge sums to produce deliberate salacious false accusations? This is not the kind of "Opposition Research" that seeks factual information on political candidates, it is outright determined production of material to falsely manipulate the American electorate.

The Russians have long held the US Dems in a more favorable light.... in the 1980s dem Senator Kennedy requested help from the Russians to defeat Reagan, promising favors in return.

yah, but in a global governance schema under UN format where our laws are essentially gonna be made by unelected corporate appointees to UN committees, and national interests set on a back burner generally, it seems strange to have globalists crying foul over international political games. Obama saw nothing wrong with outright use of US funds to try to defeat Netanyahu in the Israeli election.......

@babe, yes I recall saying in the first half of 2016 that Russian interference in our 2016 election would be the big story of the election. I still feel that is the case. Actually, I think it's been born out. It certainly took awhile. During the election cycle itself, it rose and fell within the news cycle. Finally falling, when Republican McConnell refused to go along with Obama's desire to get it out there to the public, without the Republicans claiming it was an effort to swing things to Clinton. At that point Obama must have felt the election of Clinton was too safe a bet anyway. Wrong, lol.

Anyway, I do remember starting the thread suggesting Russia was helping Trump. I do not remember claiming there was collusion at that point. I'd have to go back and see exactly what I suggested in that initial thread.

But, certainly, since interference in our election represented an attack on the sovereignty of my country, then yeah, I could not help but feel it would be the biggest story of that election. While acknowledging my own country has, via the CIA, interfered in the internal affairs of other nations often enough. I acknowledged that, but took the attitude that this is my country, and I don't like Russia screwing with us. As I put it at that time, "Hillary is our b**ch, stay out of our elections!"

At present, this is how I see the Republican turn around on the candidate whom they never wanted:

http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/cowardly-complicit-congress-article-1.3796038

And I don't think Steele is discredited at all. And when I see who one of Trump's chief advisors is, I am confident the truth of the matter will eventually be born out. If Mueller can't do it, History can, and will...

https://www.thedailybeast.com/sean-...mp-on-the-nunes-memo-because-of-course-he-has

Notice that Nunes, when in Committee, not in the network interview seat, would not say if he had worked on his memo with the White House.

Obstruction of justice is still very much on the table. Whether as @Bulletproof suggests, or because of crimes that underly the obstruction, remains to be seen.

And whether Trump has enough political capital from Nunes Memo to rid himself of this investigation also remains to be seen. It's coming to a head though, soon enough I imagine. I suspect Mueller is holding a lot more cards then Sean Hannity will ever know what to do with....

 

[♪alt13]

All I'm saying here is that Trump is the President and the economy has been recovering. To Trump supporters claiming he is the reason, I don't have an argument to tell them that he has been bad for the economy. So I give credit where it is due. Trump is the President and the economy is good.

I don't want to put myself in the camp of reality deniers.

If we are to give presidents credit for the economy(it's mostly out of their hands) when should that credit begin and end? Election night? A year? Two?

 

[Coach Ellis]

Flip side to this is that everyone says there’s nothing wrong with how FISA was used and Trump decides to use the exact same strategies to pressure Dems and other foes leading up to 2020.

I don’t care who is in power, there needs to be oversight on secret courts. Release both memos and redacted versions of the actual documents they were based on. If there’s ANY abuse, then admissible evidence should be under scrutiny and those who abused the system should be fired and/or punished.

Over the past 30 years, our country’s politics have grown increasingly polarized and we’ve seen checks and balances fall by the wayside for both sides. I don’t want to see this pattern continue in the future.

 

[Harambe]

Takeaways:
1. The dosssier was not the reason for the wire tap. Popodopolous was.
2. There's no getting around that regardless of where it came from, the Steele dossier can be 60-70% confirmed.
3. Desperation.

 

[Zombie]

Flip side to this is that everyone says there’s nothing wrong with how FISA was used and Trump decides to use the exact same strategies to pressure Dems and other foes leading up to 2020.

I don’t care who is in power, there needs to be oversight on secret courts. Release both memos and redacted versions of the actual documents they were based on. If there’s ANY abuse, then admissible evidence should be under scrutiny and those who abused the system should be fired and/or punished.

Over the past 30 years, our country’s politics have grown increasingly polarized and we’ve seen checks and balances fall by the wayside for both sides. I don’t want to see this pattern continue in the future.

This highlights one of the dangers this whole Nunes memo presents. Oversight is an important function of Congress and politicization of the oversight process undermines the ability of these committees to do their job.

 

[babe]

folks, there were dems in the oversight committee. Maybe mum like jailbirds and not really liking it, but sure talking about what was going on with..... well..... "authorized" people. There was internal opposition to releasing it officially.

Personally, I am opposed to the FISC from the gitgo. This court is set up to violate US Citizen rights of privacy. The supposed stipulations and requirements the court is supposed to operate on and silly false façade stuff. Nobody in the system is gonna follow these rules if they hold all the relevant cards and no one else can see them. It is Banana Republic bureaucracy at work.

I don't know where to start to begin the chronicle of government abuse of personal rights. The Brits did it with such flourish and bravado some American colonists.... "Subjects of "Is Majesty The King" got pretty sore, I'm told. And they tried to prevent government from doing that in their new nation after the dust settled, but they knew it was the nature of almost all men seeking power to find one way or another around any inconvenient obstacle to their power.

I have no doubt Obama abused the system, just like if not more than George Bush and Clinton.

There can be no denying that the FISA applications are made under oath of affirmation, and that the FISA judge is required to determine all the facts of each application on the basis of available detailed affirmations without omitted important facts like "How did you get this information" and "What have you done to verify its validity".

The very fact that a set of government employees with confirmed biases and expressed determinations to affect our electoral process used official government resources to deflect our election is damning in itself beyond anything anyone can say in defense.

This is all the crime, and much much more, than we could fear from foreign meddling in our elections.

 

[babe]

For the record, I consider this forum a sports fan forum, and in that context I take a dim view of anyone getting all bothered by anyone else's points of view or confirmed ignorance. If you're a Utah Jazz fan, this is not the place to settle political issues.

Being amused by others' views, and perhaps willing to share your own. Beyond that, keeping house rules so the place is clean and decent is the extent of our legitimate concerns.

I know there are quite a few very committed folks in here with what they consider to be the weight of the worlds' future on their shoulders, determined to do all they can to save the planet or the whatever. Mine might be the rescue of the lost souls among us.... lol. yah, maybe silly as some say. But as long as you cheer for the Jazz you should have your own little space here.....

 

[JazzForLifee]

thought this thread was about okur.

 

[Deleted member 5000]

Best commentary on the MEMO I've read:

"Then it was released and the world did not end. FBI agents have thus far not been fired. Seeing “classified” material did not terrify us, but rather it demonstrated clearly that information is kept from us by claiming it is “classified.”

In the end, both sides got it wrong. Here’s what the memo really shows us:"

Read the rest here:

 

[JazzGal]

Best commentary on the MEMO I've read:

"Then it was released and the world did not end. FBI agents have thus far not been fired. Seeing “classified” material did not terrify us, but rather it demonstrated clearly that information is kept from us by claiming it is “classified.”

In the end, both sides got it wrong. Here’s what the memo really shows us:"

Read the rest here:

While I don't agree with everything he said, I do agree with the ending:

In the meantime, be skeptical of both parties. With few exceptions they are not protecting liberty but promoting its opposite.

 

[sirkickyass]

This is a still from Russia-1's Sunday news show. The banner headline reads "Conspiracy against the USA's President."




Fox News and Russian State Television are now literally telling the same story.

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

This is a still from Russia-1's Sunday news show. The banner headline reads "Conspiracy against the USA's President."


View attachment 5565

Fox News and Russian State Television are now literally telling the same story.

Your point?

 

[babe]

This is a still from Russia-1's Sunday news show. The banner headline reads "Conspiracy against the USA's President."


View attachment 5565

Fox News and Russian State Television are now literally telling the same story.

Sorry if I missed your response to my comments about your last comment. I sorta guessed, dunno where the notion came from, that you might be related to the Huntsman political dynastic family, Jon H. Sr., or Jr., somehow. This would explain to some extent your knowledge and viewpoint on Russia. Traced back to connections with Armand Hammer. Jr. went into Russia to build some oil derivative/product business, but didn't survive there. Since my comment I have learned that Putin pretty much kicked out a whole gaggle of "globalist" supporting corporates. There was a meeting, and all were invited, where Putin said if you're not a supporter of Russia but of international governance, you are not welcome. And Jr. definitely is a supporter of globalism.

Since then, the West has become pretty much anti-Russian..... well, except for Bill and Hillary Clinton who have used their status and official government office to profit personally from doing business with Russia, including running a bunch of crap on Trump through a Russian company, and possibly through Russian government offices as well.... no doubt the Russian equivalent of deep-stater supporters of globalism....to try to stop Trump as any possible point.

We supported fascists funded perhaps through George Soros, who infiltrated from outside the Ukraine in overthrowing a Russia-friendly elected government, in violation of general ethics as well as violating our assurances to Russia during the START treaty negotiations, that we would keep out of Ukrainian politics. Well, however you might think of it, a Ukraine that is a sort of unspoken wink wink asset of Russia pretending to be independent.... was part of the reason Russia signed the treaty.

In an age of transition to globalist UN governance, the whole idea of objecting to intra-governmental assistance between like-minded parties in various countries should be "just silly". We are one world. We don't object to citizens of Kansas sending money to help elect "the right" man from Georgia, now, do we.

And now, today, the British Foreign Office sent a lawyer to monitor court proceedings in England to intimidate the prosecution in the on-going case of a Russian who is suing Christopher Steele for falsely accusing him of hacking the US Democratic Party computers. It is proven here that the Russian did not do it now. But the British Foreign Office wants this lawsuit quashed, wants to prevent further information from coming out in discovery, which would further implicated British intelligence services in their cooperation or interaction with US intelligence service in the effort to dump Trump.

I'm pretty sure that Russian media, following Putin's nationalist and anti-globalist agenda, has done a ton of stories and headlines that run parallel to Fox News.

Both Russia and China have thrown off their puppet strings to British Foreign Office meddling, and the real question in the fight here is whether the United States will follow suit.

Yes, we're gonna have globalism. The Brits and the US have been, historically, the bastions of human rights and fundamental liberties in comparison to the rest of the world. But the involvement of Rockefeller and other corporate Bigs in acquiring influence and power in the West, and the philosophical turn to progressive/Marxist ideology in the West even while Russia and China are turning away from totalitarianism to some degree, is the problem we face.

Trump takes a very independent "American" interest as his rule of thumb in making deals or agreements with other nations, and has moved quite strongly towards reducing government over-reach in many practical areas. He is not ideological at all, which means he just sees progressive/Marxist ideals as worthless.

Our oligarchs are trying to overthrow Trump, through useful idiot ideologues planted by Obama and Bush in our key government agencies.... DOJ and intelligence.... and our oligarch-owned Press is not a free Press at all, but a pack of determined liars trying dominate our culture with whatever useful daily propaganda it takes to keep their seat of power.

If you will trace back through intellectual/educational or financial channels of support, you will find an oligarch hating the fact that Americans voted for Trump, and some stuff Trump is doing. Even while Trump tries to keep channels of communication open with the oligarchs and is still seeking to do some "deals" and gain necessary support for what he (Trump) sees as good for business.

Trump is not even committed to Constitutional principles, just "good sense".

If we go on believing our lying media and letting our politicians, if "on the oligarch team" get away with breaking our laws, we are "just silly", as Bullet might say.

 

[Red]

Lol.....

http://money.cnn.com/2018/02/07/med...text-message-clinton-investigation/index.html

 

[sirkickyass]

Babe: I read your post but I don't have any idea how to respond to it. The whole thing seems like word salad to me that is meandering wildly from subject to subject. It is honestly easier for me to decode Russian newspapers.