Woman gets 10 Years in Prison for Selling $30 Worth of Weed in Oklahoma
- Thread starter Nate505
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Agoxlea
Guest
Please provide ONE example. If you are referring to SF banning Happy Meals, that is because they are targeting minors. Most people propose restrictions on Cannabis for minors as well. Once people are of a consenting age to eat themselves to death, I haven't seen anyone attempt to legally forbid them.
PearlWatson
Well-Known Member
I don't believe this is the case. Even in this case she was put in prison for selling it...not simply possessing it.
I asked my friend who works at the Utah prison if he has a bunch of pot users taking up space in prison. He said he know of only one dude in for pot and he had 2 truckloads of the stuff.
No. When someone puts their personal experience over careful studies as a source of reliable information, three thing come to my mind, the least offensive of which is homeopathy.
You say that like it is a bad thing. You believe in the superiority of anecdotes and personal experience over carefully collected and examined data. That's the same process used by homeopaths, who caim their experiences and anecdotes show that all those scientific test which have their product being no more effective than a placebo are wrong. Why don't you think teh comparison is a compliment? Is it because only your personal observations and anecdotes are allowed to trump carefully collected data?
No problem. I don't really expect one.
Do you have anything specific?
I agree.
Why? How many people are limited in their usage today by the cost? Do you have any evidence, or is this just your personal experience? How did you gain such experience?
Now, I agree that usage will increase somewhat due to the legality. Cost, not so much.
I smoked once when I was 14, and didn't see the point in doing it again.
Why would usage of other drugs increase?
I'm not sure what you mean by "changing the field". I agree it would be lumped in. I am unsure why you think this is a bad thing.
I agree. Issues are almost never solved, although they can be contributed to or diminished.
I agree. However, as far as I know, it is our only example.
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Agoxlea
Guest
Antivaxers
Are you trying to say my experience was not careful or studied?
If you like studies so much why haven't I heard this one yet?
https://www.justthinktwice.com/factsfiction/fiction_marijuana_is_harmless.html
Oh, because it doesn't back up what you say, so it must be wrong.
Just because I don't post or reference a study doesn't mean I haven't looked into things.
Just because I have an opinion that is different than what you want it to be doesn't mean I haven't put any effort into it, or that I must be blind.
I could use the same arguments at your position as were used on mine, *only a blind fool would ignore studies like these.
*paraphrased and altered from a prior post in the thread.
~this rant is not specifically directed at you One Brow.
Why do I get the impression you are just being a prick and that you don't really care?
You don't think it will increase due to the cost, but will due to the legality? Is this based on experience, or some sort of case study?
It would increase because the kids that experiment with drugs will now start with highly addictive drugs that are not generally classified as "recreational drugs".
Welcome to the Hotel California.
Casual, or experimental drug users would start with coke or something, rather than starting with pot. The jumping off point will have changed, which changes the whole field. You can't make a big change like people are talking about without it affecting everything, and every aspect of the whole scenario.
I've been reading the back and forth here between GVC and Spazz, and though it won't clear anything up, I wanted to add my two cents:
Personally, I'm for the legalization.
I don't do marijuana, never have, but I have probably half a dozen close friends that do or did, and several dozen acquaintances that do. This is an extremely small sample size, I know, but their behavior is fairly consistent.
None of them do harder drugs (that I know of) despite having used for years. Several of them go through phases where they will use for a while, then put it on the back burner for a few months. This doesn't look a lot like addiction to me. Also, for the most part, when they use, they are extremely unmotivated to go out and do things that may be considered dangerous under the influence of a mind altering substance (really, they are pretty much unmotivated to do anything.) But my point is, I've never seen one of them do something to put them in a position to hurt someone else.
Anyway, it's a shame that something far less destructive than prescription opiates (yeah, Spazz, I'm aware of your position on Rx) is treated like such a threat. I believe that it would already be legal, minus the 1930's propaganda blitz that was motivated more by politics than actual health and welfare. But that's just me.
Personally, I'm for the legalization.
I don't do marijuana, never have, but I have probably half a dozen close friends that do or did, and several dozen acquaintances that do. This is an extremely small sample size, I know, but their behavior is fairly consistent.
None of them do harder drugs (that I know of) despite having used for years. Several of them go through phases where they will use for a while, then put it on the back burner for a few months. This doesn't look a lot like addiction to me. Also, for the most part, when they use, they are extremely unmotivated to go out and do things that may be considered dangerous under the influence of a mind altering substance (really, they are pretty much unmotivated to do anything.) But my point is, I've never seen one of them do something to put them in a position to hurt someone else.
Anyway, it's a shame that something far less destructive than prescription opiates (yeah, Spazz, I'm aware of your position on Rx) is treated like such a threat. I believe that it would already be legal, minus the 1930's propaganda blitz that was motivated more by politics than actual health and welfare. But that's just me.
Like Bronco, I would like to give my 2 cents as well:
GVC, I love you dog, but no matter how smart you think you sound, or how well read you are on 'the facts' about weed, your arguments sound EXACTLY like The Thriller/Beantown/Salty. Show some g'damn respect for people who disagree with you, Judas. You beg for them to see your side, all the while ripping apart their side? This thread is annoying as hell.
JazzSpazz, I agree with most of everything you said, and how you said it. Good job on staying out of the pig-pen with GVC.
And lastly, as a long time user and someone who would LOVE to do it again (lousy wife), I fully support legalization and taxation. Let adults choose what they want to do to their own bodies.
GVC, I love you dog, but no matter how smart you think you sound, or how well read you are on 'the facts' about weed, your arguments sound EXACTLY like The Thriller/Beantown/Salty. Show some g'damn respect for people who disagree with you, Judas. You beg for them to see your side, all the while ripping apart their side? This thread is annoying as hell.
JazzSpazz, I agree with most of everything you said, and how you said it. Good job on staying out of the pig-pen with GVC.
And lastly, as a long time user and someone who would LOVE to do it again (lousy wife), I fully support legalization and taxation. Let adults choose what they want to do to their own bodies.
How many scientists walk around with you every day monitoring different variables?
Because it wasn't a study, it was a cherry-picking polemic that ostly referenced other polemics.
I don't know that anything on that page is wrong. Much of it is not meaningful, just some random correlations trhown around with no attempt at causal linkage.
The methodology you use to look into things is as important as important as the effort. Homeopaths do a great deal of research on their water pills. It's just done in a silly fashion.
I have far too much respect for you to think you are lazy, or blind. However, every human (certainly including me) is prone to searching out evidence that confrms what we already believe, and disregarding evidence that disconfirms it. I've read people who have been blogging on skeptical topics for years that acknowledge an occasional surprise in that vein, an issue where they had there blinders on.
You could, except I don't think you are a fool, and I would carefully evaluate any actual studies you present. For example, the article from the Journal of General Internal Medicine itself could convince me that there was possible lung damage from marijuana, although it ould be better to read the article directly than rely on th esummary of this web page.
Understood. I hope you don't mind my responding to it anyhow.
I have no emotional investment in marijuana legalization, although I support it from general principles. I've seen many people try to emphasize the need skkeptical thinking regarded to be acting like pricks, so I'm not surprised you feel that way.
Neither. The issue that it will not increase based on cost is a null hypothesis (you assume no change unless a good reason for change has been presented). Even while it is illegal, I hear very few copmplaints that people can't afford marijuana (as opposed to cocaine, for example).
Why wold they not start with tobacco, alcohol, and marijuana, as they do now?
To my knowledge, the current starting point for recreational drug use is usually with tobacco or alcohol, less often marijuana.
They would be the second-least offensive.
GVC
Well-Known Member
Anyway, although I've said I'd likely bow out after previous posts, I think it's important that I add just a little bit of my own personal experience. I'm not sure of what worth it is to anyone else, and am worried that certain people may use what I say to discredit me. Oh well.
If I still lived in Provo, as an active Mormon, I likely wouldn't give two ***** about this issue. I should be more empathetic toward people whose life experience/understanding is different than mine. Of course, that's not the life I lead anymore. When I left Provo 5 years ago, I was broke and broken. In the last five years, I've held steady jobs, gone back to university and completed, with a high level of excellence, a BA, and will, in August, begin grad school. I would never have thought that possible five years ago. In these last five years, cannabis has greatly improved my quality of life. Further, it has improved the quality of life of people I care for deeply. While some of the problems I had in my past still persist to some degree now, they are no longer debilitating. It offends me deeply when people, especially those who profess a belief in an empathetic god and savior, tell me I'm bad, label me a criminal, and seek to change my harmless behavior. I consume cannabis with good intentions, and, as far as I can tell, to the detriment of no one. I am distressed that anyone would want to deprive me of my liberty to pursue a happy and productive life. At best, this behavior is the height of ignorance, at worst extremely cruel.
It is worthwhile, in my opinion, for everyone to consider the possibility that treating public health issues through the criminal justice system is not effective. People like me deserve to be treated better.
If I still lived in Provo, as an active Mormon, I likely wouldn't give two ***** about this issue. I should be more empathetic toward people whose life experience/understanding is different than mine. Of course, that's not the life I lead anymore. When I left Provo 5 years ago, I was broke and broken. In the last five years, I've held steady jobs, gone back to university and completed, with a high level of excellence, a BA, and will, in August, begin grad school. I would never have thought that possible five years ago. In these last five years, cannabis has greatly improved my quality of life. Further, it has improved the quality of life of people I care for deeply. While some of the problems I had in my past still persist to some degree now, they are no longer debilitating. It offends me deeply when people, especially those who profess a belief in an empathetic god and savior, tell me I'm bad, label me a criminal, and seek to change my harmless behavior. I consume cannabis with good intentions, and, as far as I can tell, to the detriment of no one. I am distressed that anyone would want to deprive me of my liberty to pursue a happy and productive life. At best, this behavior is the height of ignorance, at worst extremely cruel.
It is worthwhile, in my opinion, for everyone to consider the possibility that treating public health issues through the criminal justice system is not effective. People like me deserve to be treated better.
While it may appear I stand firmly on the side of keeping cannabis illegal, my main point is that there is much more to the equation. I just think it will create as many issues to deal with as it will solve, and it needs to be thoroughly thought through. If it came down to a vote right now, I don't know what I would decide. I understand you feel it has helped you and others quality of life and your ability to be more productive and happy. I also know there are others that it does the opposite not only for them, but their families. By families I mean wives, children, parents, siblings, nieces, nephews... it effects them all. Please try not to view my concerns as a personal attack on your way of life , just I will try not to view your way of life in a negative light. Just as you have negative experiences based on your time in Provo, I have negative experiences with those I love involving cannabis.
I have concerns and questions and though I word them in a right vs wrong context, and think there are better ways to be a productive and happy person, I am glad you found a way to improve your life.
Your sensitivity to this subject seems to be similar to my sensitivity to the "religion" topic and comments. I think there's a way we can co-exist without being offended at differing opinions. I wish you all the true happiness you can find.
GVC
Well-Known Member
Fortunately for you, you aren't treated as a criminal for your beliefs and way of life. If only every good intentioned, harmless person could say the same thing.
Although it may be unfair for me to say this, I would bet a lot of the problems you see as being caused by cannabis were actually caused by some other underlying issues. Neither addiction nor these other underlying issues should be treated with the criminal law IMO. It is a cruel practice not fit for free, democratic societies. It has not been shown to "cure" people's addiction, lessen the burden of the social ills caused by addiction, and has some other pretty terrible effects (the stigma and difficulty of being a felon for life, recidivism and interaction with more dangerous criminals while in prison). I realize some think that this isn't an important issue, but it is for me any millions of others. We should not be compelled to change our lifestyle without good reason. The onus is on those who would treat us as criminals to explain how doing so solves the real and imagined problems caused by cannabis use.
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Agoxlea
Guest
For what reason do you need to oppose it for your family. Would they suddenly start using it if it became legal. If so they most likely would use it whether or not it was legal. I am assuming you don't think they would start using it if it were legalized, and if they would/did wouldn't you much rather it be treated as a social problem with treatment instead of potential criminal implications? Are/were they dissuaded from using it because of its illegality. Which brings me to my question of: After a dozen pages of discussion between you guys, how does its legality affect anyone but the user in any way? You are still entitled and allowed to be a productive and happy person in your "better" ways, but maybe for others that is what works for them. What if your "better" ways were deemed immoral and made illegal? (I don't use "better" in a mocking way, I was just using quotations to highlight something you said.)
Re-read the first part of the post you quoted. I don't know which way I lean. I know there are problems with the way it is handled now, but I also know we would be creating a whole new set of problems to deal with if we legalized it. I don't know if any family members would start using if it was legalized, but I think the more it is available in stores the more it will be tried by people that would never seek out a "dealer" on the street.
How do things affect other people? There is nothing that "only affects the user". What, do you think anyone lives in a vacuum? Anything somebody does effects other people. You cannot do anything in life without it effecting someone else in some way. Even you breathing the air is effecting people, animals, the environment, etc. It's a pretty narrow view to think you can do anything and not have it effect numerous people, things, or situations. A person's thoughts lead directly to that same persons words, and actions. If a person spends 12 hours a day playing video games what do you think that person is thinking about the other hours? What do you think that person talks about? Let's just say that person doesn't go outside or interact with anyone outside of their video game buddies. That person still effects the video game buddies, anyone associated with those video game buddies, and it could go out from there like a ripple. It's possible neighbors or family have some sort of effect from having no interaction with that person. Even a lack of speaking or interacting can create an effect. My point, don't even try to say " I can do whatever I want and it's only my business" because it's not and you are always affecting people with words, lack of words, actions, or lack of actions.
As to the "better" ways that gets more into a moral and religious discussion. Let's just say I think and believe there are better ways to improve life without mind/mood altering drugs if approached in the right way with the right attitude.
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Agoxlea
Guest
1) most people don't sit around and do nothing 2) should we be sending people to jail based on how socially active they are? 3) directed at Marcus: I'm taking your Paul Ryan signature to mean you favor a smaller government. Isn't government making value judgments on our moral behavior pretty intrusive?
DutchJazzer
Banned
exactly
You should go to jail for this post.
The reason is you took my line a mile from my point and asked if it was applicable.
I like to discuss one point, and move on to the other.... not take a comment directed at a specific point and try to apply it somewhere it wasn't intended.
You said the legality of the drug only affected the user.
I stated in a longwinded way that it affects many, many people.
It is like throwing a million rocks of various sizes into the air so they land on a lake's surface. Do you think the ripple of one rock affects any other ripples, or that one rock's ripples are it's own and affect nothing else? Basically I debunked the argument that "what I do affects only me, so stay out of my business". It does not only affect you, and it is everyone else's business because it affects them too.
Did I say anything about jail time? No... I even told you earlier in the post I was unsure which way I leaned on it, so why bring it up again?