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Best Utah Jazz starting 5 of all-time

LoPo said:
Fully healthy this year, we destroyed them twice. And all due respect to Favors and Rubio, but Stockton and Malone are much better.
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But that was regular season. We would not have beaten them in a 7 game series this year. But if healthy we might have won 2 games.

I think their starting 5 is comparable/close with our all time starting 5(Ours is better but it is close). But if you add in bench depth its not close.
 
TheStormofWar said:
PG: Stockton
SG: Pistol
SF: AK
PF: Malone
C: Gobert

Bench: Eaton, BRuss, Dantley, Mitchell, Rubio (based on how I think his impact will be), Hayward, Griffith.
Injured Reserve: Hornacek, DWill.

I give Eaton a ton of credit, but I think Gobert is just as good and will be better. Mitchell I can't put over Pete yet, but give it some time. To me, prime AK47 > Hayward. Simply put, AK didn't need the ball to affect the game. He was an All-star as well, so the rest is pretty much a wash.
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How can u put AK over Mitchell? Prime AK was trash!! Or do u mean pre-paid AK? Pre-paid AK was amazing.


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Ron Mexico said:
I disagree with that. I think Hayward is and was better at a lot of things over AK. The only thing AK is definitely better at is being an elite help defender and maybe rebounding. But his man defense was good but not great most of the time. Its hard to compare though because Prime AK was 22, he got worse every year after that. Hayward is a better passer, he has better handle, he is a much better shooter, he is a better driver, he scored better at the rim, and turned the ball over less despite handling the ball way more.

We also got to see Hayward be pretty good in the playoffs. AK in the playoffs was nothing special since his only good couple years they missed the playoffs. Hayward best playoffs was 24ppg, 6 boards and 3.4 assists. AK best playoffs was 11 ppg, 5 boards and 2 assists. Those are not really comparable numbers.
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Respectfully disagree on numerous things.
First - AK was never in playoffs in his prime. Had that 2003-2004 or 2004-2005 team made to playoffs with healthy AK it is very reasonable to assume that AK's numbers in playoffs would be crazy given his role on the team - you can't compare Hayward's best playoffs with his usage rate to AK's playoffs when he was reduced to 4th-5th option - just makes no sense. If you look at playoff numbers where they both where 21 year old and both where not a primary option then AK wins easily.
AK was more flashy and more creative passer then Hayward despite Hayward averaging slightly more assists...their ast % is very close and yet AK was never given as much usage as Hayward and all system working for him to make those assist numbers...so yes, while Hayward averaged more assists in total and had less turnovers he never even had 10+ assist game when AK had multiple of those. at the end of the day I think passing is a tie between them two or Hayward has a very small, not significant advantage. Man to man defence? All advanced stats shows how badly overrated Hayward was in that regard. Hayward was average man to man defender at best, AK was elite and was given the best wing players to defend on daily basis. Pierce one day, Carmelo next, Kobe next, etc, etc...there is just no argument here, prime AK was elite help and man to man defender - All defensive team and the only player besides D. Robinson to finish season in top 5 in both steals and blocks. Hayward had one season where his DBPM was positive at 0.1... rest of his seasons where negative or at 0. AK constantly had DBPM at 3.0( best at 5.3 in 2005)and even in his worst years he still stayed positive until last season where he dropped to -0.2. His first playoffs DBPM was crazy 7.0, while Hayward was 1.1 at his best.
Tell me how Hayward was a better finisher at the rim if he never had FG% above .485? We know he was better jumpshooter, so AK must have finished better at the rim to compensate for poor jumpshooting to have 6 seasons with FG% higher then Hayward's best season? Otherwise your statement makes no sense. If we take 3 pointers away and look at career numbers AK 2pt% is .510 and Haywards is .470.

I think a lot of Jazz fans either forgetting or never knew about how unique AK was. How about I compare Haywards appearances in NBA leaderboards, awards and honors with AK just to see the difference?

Gordon Hayward:

Appearances on Leaderboards, Awards, and Honors

All-Star Games
2017 NBA
Weekly Awards
Jan 16, 2017 Player of the Week
Games
2011-12 NBA 66 (1st)
Minutes Played
2015-16 NBA 2893 (2nd)
Free Throws
2014-15 NBA 375 (5th)
Free Throw Attempts
2014-15 NBA 462 (8th)
Minutes Per Game
Offensive Box Plus/Minus
Career NBA 2.3 (87th)
Career 2.3 (87th)


Thats it for Gordon.

Now lets look at AK

Appearances on Leaderboards, Awards, and Honors

All-Star Games
2004 NBA
Weekly Awards
Nov 9, 2003 Player of the Week
Feb 29, 2004 Player of the Week
All-League
2001-02 All-Rookie (1st)
2003-04 All-Defensive (2nd)
2004-05 All-Defensive (2nd)
2005-06 All-Defensive (1st)
MVP Award Shares
2003-04 NBA 0.002 (13)
Games
2001-02 NBA 82 (3rd)
Free Throws
2003-04 NBA 392 (9th)
Free Throw Attempts
2003-04 NBA 496 (10th)
Steals
2003-04 NBA 150 (5th)
Blocks
2002-03 NBA 175 (6th)
2003-04 NBA 215 (3rd)
2005-06 NBA 220 (1st)
Career NBA 1461 (38th)
Career 1461 (39th)
2-Pt Field Goal Pct
2002-03 NBA .527 (7th)
Steals Per Game
2003-04 NBA 1.9 (4th)
Blocks Per Game
2002-03 NBA 2.2 (8th)
2003-04 NBA 2.8 (3rd)
2004-05 NBA 3.3 (1st)
2005-06 NBA 3.2 (2nd)
2006-07 NBA 2.1 (9th)
Career NBA 1.8 (28th)
Career 1.8 (28th)
Player Efficiency Rating
2003-04 NBA 22.6 (8th)
True Shooting Pct
2002-03 NBA .598 (4th)
2004-05 NBA .599 (9th)
Career NBA .571 (82nd)
Career .571 (83rd)
Steal Pct
2001-02 NBA 2.9 (10th)
2009-10 NBA 2.5 (10th)
Career NBA 2.4 (70th)
Career 2.4 (86th)
Block Pct
2001-02 NBA 5.9 (4th)
2002-03 NBA 6.1 (4th)
2003-04 NBA 6.3 (3rd)
2005-06 NBA 7.0 (3rd)
2006-07 NBA 5.8 (5th)
Career NBA 5.0 (14th)
Career 5.0 (14th)
Defensive Win Shares
2003-04 NBA 5.0 (10th)
Win Shares
2003-04 NBA 11.6 (5th)
Win Shares Per 48 Minutes
Career NBA .151 (95th)
Career .151 (98th)
Box Plus/Minus
2002-03 NBA 6.6 (5th)
2003-04 NBA 8.2 (2nd)
2005-06 NBA 6.4 (4th)
2007-08 NBA 5.4 (7th)
Career NBA 5.0 (18th)
Career 5.0 (18th)
Defensive Box Plus/Minus
2001-02 NBA 3.0 (8th)
2002-03 NBA 4.0 (4th)
2003-04 NBA 4.7 (5th)
2005-06 NBA 4.9 (3rd)
2006-07 NBA 4.4 (4th)
Career NBA 3.5 (15th)
Career 3.5 (16th)
Value Over Replacement Player
2003-04 NBA 7.5 (2nd)
Career NBA 42.4 (48th)
Career 42.4 (50th)

A tiny difference?
 
Ron Mexico said:
But that was regular season. We would not have beaten them in a 7 game series this year. But if healthy we might have won 2 games.

I think their starting 5 is comparable/close with our all time starting 5(Ours is better but it is close). But if you add in bench depth its not close.
Click to expand...

Oh, I agree completely. My whole point was that the Warriors are human. If we played them this postseason, I think we would have won 1 maybe 2 games. If we had Stockton for Rubio and Malone for Favors, they would win 1 maybe 2 games.

Certain stars over the years have transferable skills. Malone and Stockton could play in any era. They were big enough, fast enough, and comprehensive enough of players. Malone at C in small lineups would have been fun to see. He was athletic enough to keep up with Draymond on D then post him up on O. Stockton would probably shoot the ball more in today's game. Considering how well he shot the 3....
 
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LoPo said:
If we played them this postseason, I think we would have won 1 maybe 2 games. If we had Stockton for Rubio and Malone for Favors, they would win 1 maybe 2 games.
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I initially was going to reply about how I disagree with this because the Jazz have no answer for Durant. But I have now talked myself into thinking that peak AK47 is one of the few players in the history of the league with the tools to slow Durant down. If I was making a lineup to go against the Warrior's starters, it would be: Mailman, AK47, Hayward, Mitchell, & John VS Green, Durant, Andre, Klay, & Curry
 
idestroyedthetoilet said:
The Eaton underrating here is stupid.



Replace Gobert with Eaton in his prime today and you would have to start an argument about DPOY that woruld start with Eaton and end with Eaton. He had better offensive skill as well with that sky hook, but credit Stockton a lot for his feeds. Check that insane dish after the near turnover in the video.

Eaton could perform in today's NBA every bit as good as Gobert, if not better because of weight. He was a freaking wall and had great instincts.

As much as I like Gobert, I'm taking prime Eaton.
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I wonder how many here actually watched Eaton play? Eaton has a record that will likely never fall. He averaged 5.56 blocks per game in the 84-85 season.
 
MVP said:
Respectfully disagree on numerous things.
First - AK was never in playoffs in his prime. Had that 2003-2004 or 2004-2005 team made to playoffs with healthy AK it is very reasonable to assume that AK's numbers in playoffs would be crazy given his role on the team - you can't compare Hayward's best playoffs with his usage rate to AK's playoffs when he was reduced to 4th-5th option - just makes no sense. If you look at playoff numbers where they both where 21 year old and both where not a primary option then AK wins easily.
AK was more flashy and more creative passer then Hayward despite Hayward averaging slightly more assists...their ast % is very close and yet AK was never given as much usage as Hayward and all system working for him to make those assist numbers...so yes, while Hayward averaged more assists in total and had less turnovers he never even had 10+ assist game when AK had multiple of those. at the end of the day I think passing is a tie between them two or Hayward has a very small, not significant advantage. Man to man defence? All advanced stats shows how badly overrated Hayward was in that regard. Hayward was average man to man defender at best, AK was elite and was given the best wing players to defend on daily basis. Pierce one day, Carmelo next, Kobe next, etc, etc...there is just no argument here, prime AK was elite help and man to man defender - All defensive team and the only player besides D. Robinson to finish season in top 5 in both steals and blocks. Hayward had one season where his DBPM was positive at 0.1... rest of his seasons where negative or at 0. AK constantly had DBPM at 3.0( best at 5.3 in 2005)and even in his worst years he still stayed positive until last season where he dropped to -0.2. His first playoffs DBPM was crazy 7.0, while Hayward was 1.1 at his best.
Tell me how Hayward was a better finisher at the rim if he never had FG% above .485? We know he was better jumpshooter, so AK must have finished better at the rim to compensate for poor jumpshooting to have 6 seasons with FG% higher then Hayward's best season? Otherwise your statement makes no sense. If we take 3 pointers away and look at career numbers AK 2pt% is .510 and Haywards is .470.

I think a lot of Jazz fans either forgetting or never knew about how unique AK was. How about I compare Haywards appearances in NBA leaderboards, awards and honors with AK just to see the difference?

Gordon Hayward:

Appearances on Leaderboards, Awards, and Honors

All-Star Games
2017 NBA
Weekly Awards
Jan 16, 2017 Player of the Week
Games
2011-12 NBA 66 (1st)
Minutes Played
2015-16 NBA 2893 (2nd)
Free Throws
2014-15 NBA 375 (5th)
Free Throw Attempts
2014-15 NBA 462 (8th)
Minutes Per Game
Offensive Box Plus/Minus
Career NBA 2.3 (87th)
Career 2.3 (87th)


Thats it for Gordon.

Now lets look at AK

Appearances on Leaderboards, Awards, and Honors

All-Star Games
2004 NBA
Weekly Awards
Nov 9, 2003 Player of the Week
Feb 29, 2004 Player of the Week
All-League
2001-02 All-Rookie (1st)
2003-04 All-Defensive (2nd)
2004-05 All-Defensive (2nd)
2005-06 All-Defensive (1st)
MVP Award Shares
2003-04 NBA 0.002 (13)
Games
2001-02 NBA 82 (3rd)
Free Throws
2003-04 NBA 392 (9th)
Free Throw Attempts
2003-04 NBA 496 (10th)
Steals
2003-04 NBA 150 (5th)
Blocks
2002-03 NBA 175 (6th)
2003-04 NBA 215 (3rd)
2005-06 NBA 220 (1st)
Career NBA 1461 (38th)
Career 1461 (39th)
2-Pt Field Goal Pct
2002-03 NBA .527 (7th)
Steals Per Game
2003-04 NBA 1.9 (4th)
Blocks Per Game
2002-03 NBA 2.2 (8th)
2003-04 NBA 2.8 (3rd)
2004-05 NBA 3.3 (1st)
2005-06 NBA 3.2 (2nd)
2006-07 NBA 2.1 (9th)
Career NBA 1.8 (28th)
Career 1.8 (28th)
Player Efficiency Rating
2003-04 NBA 22.6 (8th)
True Shooting Pct
2002-03 NBA .598 (4th)
2004-05 NBA .599 (9th)
Career NBA .571 (82nd)
Career .571 (83rd)
Steal Pct
2001-02 NBA 2.9 (10th)
2009-10 NBA 2.5 (10th)
Career NBA 2.4 (70th)
Career 2.4 (86th)
Block Pct
2001-02 NBA 5.9 (4th)
2002-03 NBA 6.1 (4th)
2003-04 NBA 6.3 (3rd)
2005-06 NBA 7.0 (3rd)
2006-07 NBA 5.8 (5th)
Career NBA 5.0 (14th)
Career 5.0 (14th)
Defensive Win Shares
2003-04 NBA 5.0 (10th)
Win Shares
2003-04 NBA 11.6 (5th)
Win Shares Per 48 Minutes
Career NBA .151 (95th)
Career .151 (98th)
Box Plus/Minus
2002-03 NBA 6.6 (5th)
2003-04 NBA 8.2 (2nd)
2005-06 NBA 6.4 (4th)
2007-08 NBA 5.4 (7th)
Career NBA 5.0 (18th)
Career 5.0 (18th)
Defensive Box Plus/Minus
2001-02 NBA 3.0 (8th)
2002-03 NBA 4.0 (4th)
2003-04 NBA 4.7 (5th)
2005-06 NBA 4.9 (3rd)
2006-07 NBA 4.4 (4th)
Career NBA 3.5 (15th)
Career 3.5 (16th)
Value Over Replacement Player
2003-04 NBA 7.5 (2nd)
Career NBA 42.4 (48th)
Career 42.4 (50th)

A tiny difference?
Click to expand...

Your first assertion is what I said so I am not sure why you are arguing that. I said the comparison was a problem because we never got to see prime AK in the playoffs. But that also points to how sad his career was that he peaked at 22.

There is a lot of problems here with your argument. First of all you are comparing AKs career stats with Haywards. Of course AK has more awards for his 13 year career. Hayward has just entered his prime.

I was comparing their best year. For their best year Hayward is better at almost everything. Hayward did take a long time to get good. AK got good fast and the regressed quickly. But at their peaks Hayward is much better.

I think AKs man defense is very overrated. Stats say he struggled to stay in front of his guy. Which for me is one of the few stats that matters. All other defensive stats are reflective of the team not the individual. AK did get more blocks and steals but he gambled to get them, those are overrated stats. AK was notorious for leaving his guy open for threes to try and help. He often cheated way off his own guy to play passing lanes and try and get blocks.
 
Ron Mexico said:
Your first assertion is what I said so I am not sure why you are arguing that. I said the comparison was a problem because we never got to see prime AK in the playoffs. But that also points to how sad his career was that he peaked at 22.

There is a lot of problems here with your argument. First of all you are comparing AKs career stats with Haywards. Of course AK has more awards for his 13 year career. Hayward has just entered his prime.

I was comparing their best year. For their best year Hayward is better at almost everything. Hayward did take a long time to get good. AK got good fast and the regressed quickly. But at their peaks Hayward is much better.

I think AKs man defense is very overrated. Stats say he struggled to stay in front of his guy. Which for me is one of the few stats that matters. All other defensive stats are reflective of the team not the individual. AK did get more blocks and steals but he gambled to get them, those are overrated stats. AK was notorious for leaving his guy open for threes to try and help. He often cheated way off his own guy to play passing lanes and try and get blocks.
Click to expand...
Nice analysis
 
Ron Mexico said:
I just remember him as older I suppose. His main peak playing days were around the early 80s. Mostly I have seen highlights from then and that is not what I see in those. So maybe ill have to take you word on it.
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Most of us were just young pups and never seen his best years, and he didn't have a long career. He was just too damn big for longetivity.

"The Gobert Effect" was originally announced by Hot Rod as "The Eaton Effect". He has 4 of the top 15 blocks per game seasons, including #1 and 4.

Talent always finds a way to adapt.
 
Ron Mexico said:
I was comparing their best year. For their best year Hayward is better at almost everything. Hayward did take a long time to get good. AK got good fast and the regressed quickly. But at their peaks Hayward is much better.
Click to expand...

No it is not. Steals, FG%, blocks and rebounds is in favor of AK. Hayward better at scoring, FT%, 3pt% and assists.
 
Jazz all-time : Stockton-Hornacek-Dantley-Malone-Eaton
Today's game : Stockton-Hayward-Ingles-Kirilenko-Gobert
 
Ron Mexico said:
Your first assertion is what I said so I am not sure why you are arguing that. I said the comparison was a problem because we never got to see prime AK in the playoffs. But that also points to how sad his career was that he peaked at 22.
Click to expand...

He did not peak at 22. He was still at his peak in NBA 23-25 ( sadly injuries cut some of those seasons short) yet his role on the team was reduced by Sloan and his love for Boozer/Williams pick and roll. AK was MVP of Eurobasket in 2007 and leading underdog Russia team to championship. He should have requested a trade form the Jazz to shine on some other team - yet Miller talked him into staying and accepting reduced role which he did.
 
Ron Mexico said:
I think AKs man defense is very overrated. Stats say he struggled to stay in front of his guy. Which for me is one of the few stats that matters. All other defensive stats are reflective of the team not the individual. AK did get more blocks and steals but he gambled to get them, those are overrated stats. AK was notorious for leaving his guy open for threes to try and help. He often cheated way off his own guy to play passing lanes and try and get blocks.
Click to expand...

While I agree that after 2004 he was chasing some stats and his man to man defence got worse with time, in 2002-2004 AK man to man to man defence was elite. He shut down Kobe for whole second half in one game. I remember the game vs Denver in 2004 where he blocked Carmelo like 4 times when he was trying to go at him one on one, it was plain ridiculous how Carmelo stopped even looking at the basket with AK near him.
 
MVP said:
No it is not. Steals, FG%, blocks and rebounds is in favor of AK. Hayward better at scoring, FT, 3pt% and assists.
Click to expand...

That is true, AK was better at some things. His FG% was not better. Hayward shot .506% from 2 compared to .471 for AK. Hayward shot .398% from 3 compared to .338% for AK. Hayward had a TS% .595% to AKs .559%. Hayward shot .692% at the rim to AKs .575%. Hayward was better at shooting and scoring from every where on the court at every distance.

Ak also didnt create much for himself. Even his best year he was assisted on 95% of his 3s and 53% of his 2s. Hayward was 75% on 3 and 43% on 2s.

AK did get more boards but he was also playing at the PF not the SF. When they both played at SF their numbers are pretty similar. They also have comparable rebounds when you look at contested rebounds.

AK also had a lot more turnovers especially turnover %.

Ak is better at blocking shots though and got more steals, but again I think those were gambles and not representative of good defense. Harden is averaging more steals than AK, is he a better defender?
 
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