The Honesty of Transgender Identity

[Archie Moses]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11690125

This was an interesting read. I'm going to do some more digging about the research used in the studies it mentions. I was definitely not familiar with them and I've read things that say completely different things too.

At the end of the day, I believe in science. We still know very little about why things are the way they are, and we're learning more and more.

 

[Archie Moses]

Why is it fair that I have to compete with people who have innate biological advantages?

What do you have to compete in?

 

[Archie Moses]

Life. Is. Not. Fair. Caster Semenya, mentioned above, has hyperandrogenism. Some people are taller than others. Some people are double jointed. Some people can jump higher. You say this is different, but you don't explain how or why. Why is it fair that I have to compete with people who have innate biological advantages?

Are you ok with athletes taking testosterone, oxygen injections, steroids, and drugs to gain a competitive advantage? Why or why not?

 

[JimLes]

Are you ok with athletes taking testosterone, oxygen injections, steroids, and drugs to gain a competitive advantage? Why or why not?

That's a whole other story, but yes. I think we need to stop drug testing and arbitrary differentiation between different substances that athletes use and let everyone do everything. If you want to shrink your balls or give yourself a heart attack, by all means. All I care about is who jumps farther or runs faster.

Arguably the greatest footballer of all time(and by logical extension, the greatest athlete of any kind of all time) Leo Messi was given growth hormones when he was a kid. Isn't that cheating? Isn't that taking hormones to gain a competitive advantage? And before you argue that in his case, he wasn't given hormones because of sports, remember that not one of the women we've been talking about transitioned for that reason either.

Shouldn't he have been forced to play with what he was born with, in his case an HGH deficiency? Why is it OK for Messi to do be given HGH at 12 and not OK for LeBron who's been doing it the last half a decade?

 

[Archie Moses]

That's a whole other story, but yes. I think we need to stop drug testing and arbitrary differentiation between different substances that athletes use and let everyone do everything. If you want to shrink your balls or give yourself a heart attack, by all means. All I care about is who jumps farther or runs faster.

Arguably the greatest footballer of all time(and by logical extension, the greatest athlete of any kind of all time) Leo Messi was given growth hormones when he was a kid. Isn't that cheating? Isn't that taking hormones to gain a competitive advantage? And before you argue that in his case, he wasn't given hormones because of sports, remember that not one of the women we've been talking about transitioned for that reason either.

Shouldn't he have been forced to play with what he was born with, in his case an HGH deficiency? Why is it OK for Messi to do be given HGH at 12 and not OK for LeBron who's been doing it the last half a decade?

I didn't know that about Messi and just read a little about him and his condition and the injections.

I respect your point of views and you certainly make great points. I think our disconnect may just simply be how we look at sports and their parameters and rules. I'm more of a traditional sports fan. I don't want athletes to be able to gain unfair advantages. I want them to use their (for lack of a better phrase) god given talents and work ability to become the best. That's why the best athletes are so idolized. They are not normal. They are the best of what the human species is naturally capable of.


My brother thinks all people should compete in the same sports because he feels humans are equal, so why not? Although you and him have different opinions from mine, I respect them. Who knows, maybe one day I'll change my mind on it too.

 

[JimLes]

I respect your point of views and you certainly make great points. I think our disconnect may just simply be how we look at sports and their parameters and rules. I'm more of a traditional sports fan. I don't want athletes to be able to gain unfair advantages. I want them to use their (for lack of a better phrase) god given talents and work ability to become the best.

I think I've grown more jaded than you about professional sports over the last 15-20 years. I find it hypocritical that we set these artificial and even arbitrary standards for professional athletes as to what we consider "fair" and "unfair" advantages. Obviously, we're a long way from a time where a bookish Jewish lawyer from Bedfordshire, England can be the fastest man in the world and win the Olympic gold at 100m. Professional athletes of our time might well be aliens or a different species. The diets, the exercise, the supplements, the treatments they do are so crazy nowadays. Platelet-rich plasma, microfracture surgery, horse placenta, oxygen tanks, cryochambers and super-berries from Namibia...I mean, even if LeBron isn't taking illegal stuff(but that jawline, though!), the amount of legal stuff he's doing is so far form using god-given talents. And I'm just using him as an example, obviously, everyone at the top level lives these alien lives. But then we hypocritically decide that there's a line somewhere, which is particularly problematic when it comes to substances. Some supplements are okay, some are not. Some make you the greatest athlete in your field, others make you a cheater and a scoundrel. We want these men and women to compete like modern day gladiators, praising those who play through injuries, but cluck our tongues when they cross that arbitrary line between legal and illegal drugs. I mean, how did we decide that getting a blood transfusion before a race was illegal? It's human blood!

This transgender sports argument just seems like another one in the long history of these arbitrary lines. There's nothing noble about sports anymore, and there hasn't been in decades.

 

[idestroyedthetoilet]

I don't think it's healthy to obsess over identity. I'd rather live with someone making a mistake about my identity than have everyone worry about the countless ways they can offend someone by misjudging their identity.

People often assume I'm hispanic. They'll speak to me in Spanish when I go to Mexican restaurants. I couldn't care less. I have relatives who are bothered by it. As if there's something wrong with Mexicans, or special about their ethnicity.

Like that time you changed your handle.

I don't get people getting upset over somebody mispronouncing their name. People are always afraid to pronounce my last name but I couldn't care less. We always waited in anticipation on our birthdays in elementary to see how it was said during morning anouncements.

Gender is obviously more sensitive but I don't see what the big deal is.

@alt don't you think gender neutral identifying is a bit degrading too at this point in time? I've ran into gay men referring to their bf as partner seemingly in a euphemized or neutralizing manner. That doesn't seem any better to me.

 

[Jazzta]

Imagine how tough this **** is for Spanish people.

???

 

[Jazzta]

But is this a transgender bathroom situation where somehow the most outlandish possible scenario is presented as most likely to happen? I have a hard time imagining someone going through any kind of gender transition for the sole purpose of playing on a sports team. And even if they did, what is the likelihood that will provide them with an actual advantage that will upset the integrity of said sport?

Not a team sport, but there's this:



Edit: I just realized Archie had posted this video already. I don't think this person transitioned for the purpose of having an advantage over other competitors but I find it very questionable to having allowed this, and other similar fights to take place.

 

[fishonjazz]

You are confident, self reliant and know who you are. In my experience most people do not have that kind of self esteem for whatever reason. I do for the most part probably because I am a smert white dude living in murrica. I am not hurt easily. There was a time that I assumed other people felt the way I do. I guess it's only natural to do so. I think that I unwittingly hurt a lot of people by making that assumption. I don't want to hurt people unintentionally.

I prefer to only hurt people when I mean to. When I think they deserve it or need to be challenged strongly. I don't want to do it by accident or to people who are already very vulnerable .

Great post.
Great conversation as well. (I'm only on page 3 though so maybe it gets worse lol)
Kudos to you all.

 

[Jazzta]

Great post.
Great conversation as well. (I'm only on page 3 though so maybe it gets worse lol)
Kudos to you all.

Good luck

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

???

The Spanish language isnt gender-neutral like English is. In English we are debating the use of gender specific pronouns. In spanish nearly every word can be gender specific.

 

[MVP]

In Russian language they have 3 gender specific pronouns... male, female and neutral. For example glasses - neutral, window - neutral, river - female, automobile - male.... etc...etc.
I get transgender stuff. I don't get when somebody tries to identify as something neither male or female and expects you to know that and call it a "zhe", or whaveter. I am sorry but that is messed up. If I go and start proclaiming that I am Napoleon, I would be considered as having some mental issues or disorder. Same with "zhem"... if they can't identify as male or female - they have a problem. I do understand that some congenital abnormalities like hermaphrodites happen but aren't they typically get surgeries to remove the parts they do not associate with?

 

[Jazzta]

The Spanish language isnt gender-neutral like English is. In English we are debating the use of gender specific pronouns. In spanish nearly every word can be gender specific.

You don’t say..
The part that I didn’t get was “Spanish people”, it’s as if you said English people. You probably meant Spanish speaking people, it’s all good.

 

[LogGrad98]

We have a neutral pronoun already. It. Why can't we just use that? Many other languages have strong gender pronouns. German has a gender signifier for every noun (der, die, das - masculine, feminine, neutral). So we say "the tree" and in german they say "der Baum", or we say "the girl" and in german it is "das Maedchen". There are complex rules that determine which gender is used when. Such as using the suffix "-chen", which is a diminutive, changes the gender of any word to the neutral "das". So "das Maedchen" - meaning "girl" - is the diminutive form of "die Magd" (that is an archaic word not in use anymore, roughly analogous to "maid" or something similar in english).

But since we do have a gender neutral pronoun what is wrong with that?

 

[bigb]

Where does it say any of these people underwent sex surgery as a devious way to win at sports? From the brief look at their information, they all seem to have transitioned for reasons that have nothing to do with sports.

"Fox was born in Toledo, Ohio. She recalls struggling with her gender as early as five or six years old. As a teenager, Fox believed she may have been a gay male, but learned about the term transgender at the age of 17. Fox continued living as a heterosexual male and married her then-girlfriend at the age of 19, when the latter became pregnant with their daughter. Fox then joined the US Navy to support her new family, serving as an operations specialist on the USS Enterprise.

After leaving the Navy, Fox enrolled at the University of Toledo, but dropped out citing ongoing psychological stress from her unresolved gender issues. After leaving college, Fox worked as a truck driver to earn money for sex reassignment surgery. She later moved to Chicago, Illinois with her daughter. In 2006, she traveled to Bangkok, Thailand to undergo gender reassignment surgery, breast augmentation, and hair transplant surgeries at the Bangkok National Hospital."

I think you’re misunderstanding what Archie is saying here. I don’t think he’s saying they’re doing for the purpose of gaining an advantage. My understanding of what he’s saying is that a person who grew up with a penis, *********, and testes (thus having more natural testosterone) is probably more muscular than someone who didn’t. If that person has a surgery in their teens to early twenties to take away those organs and now takes estrogen supplements and wants to continue playing a sport, should they be allowed to compete against females?

 

[Archie Moses]

We have a neutral pronoun already. It. Why can't we just use that? Many other languages have strong gender pronouns. German has a gender signifier for every noun (der, die, das - masculine, feminine, neutral). So we say "the tree" and in german they say "der Baum", or we say "the girl" and in german it is "das Maedchen". There are complex rules that determine which gender is used when. Such as using the suffix "-chen", which is a diminutive, changes the gender of any word to the neutral "das". So "das Maedchen" - meaning "girl" - is the diminutive form of "die Magd" (that is an archaic word not in use anymore, roughly analogous to "maid" or something similar in english).

But since we do have a gender neutral pronoun what is wrong with that?

I think what's being used now is fine and works for 99% of the population. If someone is called or addressed something different than what they'd prefer, they can inform the person who used the incorrect pronoun.

 

[Siro]

@gandalfe have you read Ancillary Justice? It's a wonderful sci-fi novel that takes place in a gender-less society.

 

[Ron Mexico]

@gandalfe have you read Ancillary Justice? It's a wonderful sci-fi novel that takes place in a gender-less society.

I just read the wiki post on this book. It looks pretty good I might have to check it out.

Its made for kids and its kind of sappy but I really like the Steven Universe story line. They should make a movie about it with thats not a cartoon. Its about a female sex only planet where they are genderless. They are a warrior planet that are a looking for universe domination or at least to expand their control, including earth. Basically a alien amazonian planet.

 

[Siro]

I just read the wiki post on this book. It looks pretty good I might have to check it out.

Its made for kids and its kind of sappy but I really like the Steven Universe story line. They should make a movie about it with thats not a cartoon. Its about a female sex only planet where they are genderless. They are a warrior planet that are a looking for universe domination or at least to expand their control, including earth. Basically a alien amazonian planet.

In Ancillary Justice, it is impossible to know any character's sex or gender since that culture is not familiar with the latter, and can easily change the former as often as they want. It makes for a very interesting read, trying to visualize the characters.