The Honesty of Transgender Identity

[Mongoose]

Given that you're now arguing against the consensus of thousands of mental health professionals, what are your qualifications?

This reaction is a major part of the problem as well. What is wrong with skepticism? The field of psychiatry/psychology certainly does not have a great track record, so I don't see the harm in questioning some of what they do. Pretty recently it was considered a mental health issue, so I don't know that everyone or even the majority of professionals agree that it is not a mental health issue. The DSM-V is not compiled from thousands of psychologist and mental health professionals. It is compiled by a committee of psychologist and professionals, many of which have ties to major pharmaceutical companies. If you heard the interview with Dr Soh, she mentions that many professionals are reluctant to speak out for fear of the backlash.

Not that my credentials matter because there is always someone with more schooling, more money, and bigger titles. I do feel safe saying that I could work as a mental health therapist or counselor if I wanted to. I could meet the licensing requirements - I completed a masters degree in counseling and I took and passed the CPCE, which is the prep exam for the NCE. I never took the NCE, I do not have experience in the field, and I have no desire to work as a mental health counselor (they get paid peanuts). So, I am just expressing my opinion...

 

[candrew]

Given that you're now arguing against the consensus of thousands of mental health professionals, what are your qualifications?

Actually there have been studies done that show the number of transgender young people who "switch back" represent an overwhelming majority.

So while l think there are many cases where an individuals "equipment" doesn't match their true inner self, there are many, many other cases where the individual is confused or troubled.

These folks should not be ignored for the sake of political correctness.

 

[Siro]

I just want to add that classification of mental disorders is mostly subjective and cultural, and not strictly defined thru objective metrics. There is a lot of disagreement on what the word "disorder" even means.

 

[mongoose01]

I just want to add that classification of mental disorders is mostly subjective and cultural, and not strictly defined thru objective metrics. There is a lot of disagreement on what the word "disorder" even means.

Right, this is true. Unfortunately there is also a stigma that goes along with having, or being told you have a mental disorder. Which as far as I can tell, was one of the main reasons it was removed from the DSM. What it does mean is that it would be open to study and “treat”. Like I said, I don’t know what treatment for transgenderism means, but certainly the option for counseling wouldn’t hurt. At least having people be aware that they should evaluate the situation and consider that something might be wrong, rather than celebrate the situation. I think mostly the psychiatric/psychology field has moved past locking up and torturing patients.


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[Gameface]

Yeah, so I guess my question, mongoose01, is: So is transgenderism a type of mental illness, something that should be treated if possible, or is it a choice that a person can and should be able to make about how they exist in the world?

And should we, as a society in general, accommodate them or is it thier issue so accomodation is their problem?

EDIT: I was typing this as you posted.

 

[mongoose01]

Yeah, so I guess my question, mongoose01, is: So is transgenderism a type of mental illness, something that should be treated if possible, or is it a choice that a person can and should be able to make about how they exist in the world?

And should we, as a society in general, accommodate them or is it thier issue so accomodation is their problem?

EDIT: I was typing this as you posted.

I think it is somewhere in between. I don’t like that a bunch of people are killing themselves. I think many of them manage just fine, but there are others that obviously could use some help. I think we should be good people and accommodate, but I think mandating and creating laws governing this is a mistake. (I think I will always lean towards less government involvement.) I also think it should be treated if possible... maybe it’s case by case. Maybe treatment means counseling, maybe it means hormones, maybe it’s transitioning, I don’t know.


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[Gameface]

I think it is somewhere in between. I don’t like that a bunch of people are killing themselves. I think many of them manage just fine, but there are others that obviously could use some help. I think we should be good people and accommodate, but I think mandating and creating laws governing this is a mistake. (I think I will always lean towards less government involvement.) I also think it should be treated if possible... maybe it’s case by case. Maybe treatment means counseling, maybe it means hormones, maybe it’s transitioning, I don’t know.


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I also wonder a lot about quickly moving towards hormone treatment and the fact that the number of people identifying as transgender is ballooning. It might be that there have always been many people who were essentially transgender, but it was such an unknown thing they expressed it in different ways. Like 20 years ago there were extremely masculine lesbians, and extremely feminine homeosexuals, are those same people today considereing themselves transgender? I feel that we and especially transgender people should be willing to consider the situation fluid, that you don't have to necessarily identify as male or female in a strictly confined sense and that it's okay to explore these at different points along a spectrum and give it time to find out where you fall.

I appreciate your participation. Thanks.

 

[mongoose01]

I also wonder a lot about quickly moving towards hormone treatment and the fact that the number of people identifying as transgender is ballooning. It might be that there have always been many people who were essentially transgender, but it was such an unknown thing they expressed it in different ways. Like 20 years ago there were extremely masculine lesbians, and extremely feminine homeosexuals, are those same people today considereing themselves transgender? I feel that we and especially transgender people should be willing to consider the situation fluid, that you don't have to necessarily identify as male or female in a strictly confined sense and that it's okay to explore these at different points along a spectrum and give it time to find out where you fall.

I appreciate your participation. Thanks.

Thanks... I had quite a few thoughts that I didn’t even know were in there. I admit I have had my guard up, but it has been good to be able to express opinions and thoughts with others.


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[olden_undercover]

I also wonder a lot about quickly moving towards hormone treatment and the fact that the number of people identifying as transgender is ballooning. It might be that there have always been many people who were essentially transgender, but it was such an unknown thing they expressed it in different ways. Like 20 years ago there were extremely masculine lesbians, and extremely feminine homeosexuals, are those same people today considereing themselves transgender? I feel that we and especially transgender people should be willing to consider the situation fluid, that you don't have to necessarily identify as male or female in a strictly confined sense and that it's okay to explore these at different points along a spectrum and give it time to find out where you fall.

I appreciate your participation. Thanks.

I think you've really hit on something significant with these comments, Bullet. Adolescents and children identifying as TG is-- I'll just say it bluntly-- concerning. Not because they couldn't possibly be TG, but because it is baffling why we would think young people undergoing rapid hormonal changes, and the physical and mental and emotional changes that accompany that, should be expected to state with certainty what they are. I'm not sure if candrew's information about the high incidence of TG 'switching back' is accurate, but if it is, it makes sense, doesn't it? Why are we pressuring children to make statements about gender and sexuality, or-- at a minimum-- allowing an environment that subjects them to that kind of social pressure? Sure, let's educate and encourage and cultivate, but with the understanding there is no need at age 8 or 12 or 16 to take a stand as TG... or hetero, or gay, or anything. Be kids; have fun; learn about the world.

 

[Archie Moses]

As for never being confronted by white people I'm not entirely clear what you are trying to say there, so I'm just going to leave that one alone.

I reread what I wrote and I'm not even clear as to what I was saying (I was a few drinks in.) There have been a few times at bars (recently) I've had to keep walking or ignore comments being made towards me and included things like cracker, whitey, white boy or things along those lines. I've certainly have been confronted by white people, but I don't recall anyone specifically commenting on me being white.

My comment last night was probably a dumb point at best. I know I don't face racism (or white people for the matter) nearly as bad as minorities. It's not even in the same ballpark. I just think hating on people because of their skin color is wrong - including hating on white people.

 

[Siro]

I reread what I wrote and I'm not even clear as to what I was saying (I was a few drinks in.) There have been a few times at bars (recently) I've had to keep walking or ignore comments being made towards me and included things like cracker, whitey, white boy or things along those lines. I've certainly have been confronted by white people, but I don't recall anyone specifically commenting on me being white.

My comment last night was probably a dumb point at best. I know I don't face racism (or white people for the matter) nearly as bad as minorities. It's not even in the same ballpark. I just think hating on people because of their skin color is wrong - including hating on white people.

Really? Is that a common experience? I'd like to hear what others think of this.

 

[Archie Moses]

Really? Is that a common experience? I'd like to hear what others think of this.

I don't think it's common, but it certainly happens.

I was at Westgate in Glendale, AZ about two months ago. After dinner I was walking back to my hotel. I was wearing brown sandals (I admit they are both hideous and very white of me to wear, but comfy) and walked by a group of young college age kids (hispanics) who were probably pretty tipsy or drunk. They gave me **** specifically about my sandals and being white, but I just kept on walking.

Again, it was a dumb comment I made last night. I was just trying to say that even as a white dude, people have given me **** because I'm a white dude. It's a dumb point at best.

 

[Archie Moses]

I appreciate your participation. Thanks.

Gawd damn it I love you.

 

[LogGrad98]

I just want to add that classification of mental disorders is mostly subjective and cultural, and not strictly defined thru objective metrics. There is a lot of disagreement on what the word "disorder" even means.

This in spades. No more uncertain science than psychology.

 

[LogGrad98]

Right, this is true. Unfortunately there is also a stigma that goes along with having, or being told you have a mental disorder. Which as far as I can tell, was one of the main reasons it was removed from the DSM. What it does mean is that it would be open to study and “treat”. Like I said, I don’t know what treatment for transgenderism means, but certainly the option for counseling wouldn’t hurt. At least having people be aware that they should evaluate the situation and consider that something might be wrong, rather than celebrate the situation. I think mostly the psychiatric/psychology field has moved past locking up and torturing patients.


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Wow then I need to get a new therapist.

 

[LogGrad98]

I don't think it's common, but it certainly happens.

I was at Westgate in Glendale, AZ about two months ago. After dinner I was walking back to my hotel. I was wearing brown sandals (I admit they are both hideous and very white of me to wear, but comfy) and walked by a group of young college age kids (hispanics) who were probably pretty tipsy or drunk. They gave me **** specifically about my sandals and being white, but I just kept on walking.

Again, it was a dumb comment I made last night. I was just trying to say that even as a white dude, people have given me **** because I'm a white dude. It's a dumb point at best.

This makes me think of an encounter I had recently I was in Detroit for work. I went into a highly-recommended barbecue joint, which was entirely filled with black people. I was literally the only white person there. I got in line, joked a bit with some folks around me and patiently waited to order my food (place was really good btw). As people walked by me I got some serious stares, and I heard comments being made under their breath. They included things like who is this guy, what the **** is he doing here, should stay on his side of town, commenting on me being white, stuff like that. It made me feel really uncomfortable to say the least. People stared, glared. One guy looked like he wanted to kill me, actually bumped me while I was in line when there was plenty of space to walk around (I am not a small guy, 6'2" 250, he was way smaller than me, doing the tough guy thing I guess).

There were definitely nice people there. The seating was like cafeteria-style and I ended up sitting next to a group of younger people, maybe in their mid-20's, and a grandma and her 2 grandkids. We all had some great conversation. I will say, it was a crazy eye-opening experience to say the least.

I have had a few experiences like this over the years and I always try to remember how it made me feel. But it also reminds me that racism exists everywhere. It is not the sole exclusive domain of the middle-aged white man.

 

[Deleted member 95]

@LogGrad98 you mean sociology. Psychology can at least claim scientific merit.

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[Siro]

@LogGrad98 you mean sociology. Psychology can at least claim scientific merit.

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So can sociology. Studying human societies and gathering data about them can be very valuable. Neither sociology nor psychology is a pseudoscience or anything like that. Psychology will eventually transform into neuroscience once the tools and prerequisite knowledge become available. Sociology is more similar to political science. For example, why is it that liberal democracies don't go to war with one another? Political scientists will come up with different explanations, and provide the data to support said explanations. The explanations are scrutinized, and some of them fall out of fashion, while others gain in popularity. But since there is no limit to the number or type of explanations one can offer, what's in fashion changes as the people interpreting the data change.

Still, you gotta do with the tools and the knowledge that you have, and all the soft sciences provide valuable insights in my view.

 

[Darkwing Duck]

So can sociology. Studying human societies and gathering data about them can be very valuable. Neither sociology nor psychology is a pseudoscience or anything like that. Psychology will eventually transform into neuroscience once the tools and prerequisite knowledge become available. Sociology is more similar to political science. For example, why is it that liberal democracies don't go to war with one another? Political scientists will come up with different explanations, and provide the data to support said explanations. The explanations are scrutinized, and some of them fall out of fashion, while others gain in popularity. But since there is no limit to the number or type of explanations one can offer, what's in fashion changes as the people interpreting the data change.

Still, you gotta do with the tools and the knowledge that you have, and all the soft sciences provide valuable insights in my view.

One of the hardest things in the social sciences is the concept of measurement. In the hard sciences, it's easy. Air temperature, distance, velocity, time, current, work, practically anything is measurable. Soft sciences? How do you measure anger, affinity, pleasure, desire, success, etc.? Soft sciences have to actually create the measurement and then measure and subsequently show that it's a viable measurement.

 

[DutchJazzer]

as the great hank williams jr. said:

Why don't you do your thing
And we do our thing too?

Why can't everybody else
Leave everybody else alone?

doesn't need explaining right. if
/thread!