Trump's golf bill

[The Thriller]

I'm a public sector worker, over the last ten years the cost of parking at my work has increased by 1500p/a my wages have increased by slightly less in that time. if i didn't have outside sources of income i'd be screwed or a least working in another job, its a joke. The worst bit is the excuses that management trawl out for this nonsense, the best one for a near 50 percent increase in the cost of parking was to encourage staff to take public transport to improve our green footprint. Makes perfect sense if you live in the city and can walk or grab a tram and be at work in 10 minutes, at the time i was living in one of Melbourne's high crime suburbs, catching the train to a night shift was dangerous for me and i'm 6'2 280 pounds, let alone an immigrant cleaner or kitchen hand. That is i think the perfect example of the liberal elite, tell all the right lies, then act exactly like the Tories and pretend to claim the moral high ground.

Sounds like your government job is being run like a business. Cutting benefits (like cheap parking) and placing the costs onto you.

Curious, do you belong to a union/association? If so, have you brought these concerns up?

 

[Rubashov]

Sounds like your government job is being run like a business. Cutting benefits (like cheap parking) and placing the costs onto you.

Curious, do you belong to a union/association? If so, have you brought these concerns up?

Watch these videos, I and a lot of other dedicated activists were kicked out for fighting these thieving bastards, i was at that meeting and involved in that brawl... Our Union has been utterly destroyed.

 

[The Thriller]

Watch these videos, I and a lot of other dedicated activists were kicked out for fighting these thieving bastards, i was at that meeting and involved in that brawl... Our Union has been utterly destroyed.

Union/association destroyed? I’m not aware of any liberals that would destroy a public worker’s union-association in favor of “right to work.”

 

[Rubashov]

Union/association destroyed? I’m not aware of any liberals that would destroy a public worker’s union-association in favor of “right to work.”

The union still exists, with a new name and conducts business the same way, members get no services, they work hand in glove with management, almost all of the of the militant delegates have walked away, most of the union offal are professional unionists, in that they never worked a day of their lives on the floor, I have nothing to do with any of them, myself and a small group of others contribute to a small fund from which we pay an industrial solicitor if we have any problems with management, which we seldom do. The real problem is when Enterprise Bargaining Agreements are negotiated which is done by the Union, they have a 100 percent record at negotiating away our wages and conditions.

 

[LogGrad98]

I find that funny. So many people voted for trump simply because lots of people were saying bad things about them. Not because they thought trump would be a good president or that they liked him but simply because a bunch of liberals said stuff about them and hurt their feelings. Man, those who voted for trump are even stupider and softer than i originally thought. Bunch a snowflakes apparently.

I don't think that's the direct "why", rather I think Bourdain was pointing out what has contributed to a political and social environment in which a candidate like trump would be able to attract enough of a following to win. Read his whole interview. It's really well-said.

 

[Gameface]

And I don't think the smug way rural (I'm using this as a very general stand in word for a larger more diverse group) people have been treated is a small thing for the people who are being insulted.

I guess a bunch of you get looked down upon and mocked and then do what the people mocking and insulting you tell you to do?

 

[Red]

It's bad that centrists have given up their voice. Most centrists avoid confrontation.



One of my friends since college, 50 yrs old white male, fits your description of the conspiracy loving Trump supporter. And he's a pot smoking mormon. And he loves the Jazz.

One of my closest friends voted for Trump. Very intelligent man. Majored in philosophy. Who does that? You have to love knowledge for knowledge's sake to major in philosophy. Taught grammar school for decades. Great teacher, the kids loved him. We share many of the same interests, like local history, etc. But, talking about politics is not an option. We don't dare, but then we know this. He cannot, for the life of him, understand how I can feel about Trump the way I do. I know my talking points would be met by his anger at the "lying media". "Deprogramming" him via presenting my case would fall on deaf ears. He lives in the alternative reality that is Trump as victim. We hang out. I value his friendship. He is a good man, a lot of good in him. I doubt he would ever attend a Trump rally, but he will have to learn who Trump is through the course of events, there is nothing I could say or present that would penetrate his beliefs at this point. I could never describe him as despicable. It's good that two people on either side of this great chasm that separates Americans now can somehow be close friends. It's good for me. I hope it's good for him.

 

[Red]

Barely.

I have grave reservations about racists, misogynists, classists, etc.. And Trump supporters can't have it both ways. Sucks because I have to reassess my relationships. I try to talk sense to some of them but it's tough. I see some change though. There's a lot of messed up people out there.

I think of Germany and how many people got sucked in.

To some degree, it's a shame that such comparisons to Germany in the 1930's cannot be raised without immediate outcries that it's way over the top. Yet, when there are a great many disaffected people within a society, the time can be ripe for cynical individuals to rise to power by playing on people's fears and anger and anxieties. The time can be ripe for a demagogue. So, the comparison can be made, and it's not unreasonable to be concerned, and frankly, alarmed at the appearance of a man like Trump at such a time. If one knows history, one understands that it may not repeat exactly, but it rhymes. But I have come to see that being too alarmist can be futile. Too many people do not appreciate the lessons of history, and things will be what they will be.

 

[Jazzta]

One of my closest friends voted for Trump. Very intelligent man. Majored in philosophy. Who does that? You have to love knowledge for knowledge's sake to major in philosophy. Taught grammar school for decades. Great teacher, the kids loved him. We share many of the same interests, like local history, etc. But, talking about politics is not an option. We don't dare, but then we know this. He cannot, for the life of him, understand how I can feel about Trump the way I do. I know my talking points would be met by his anger at the "lying media". "Deprogramming" him via presenting my case would fall on deaf ears. He lives in the alternative reality that is Trump as victim. We hang out. I value his friendship. He is a good man, a lot of good in him. I doubt he would ever attend a Trump rally, but he will have to learn who Trump is through the course of events, there is nothing I could say or present that would penetrate his beliefs at this point. I could never describe him as despicable. It's good that two people on either side of this great chasm that separates Americans now can somehow be close friends. It's good for me. I hope it's good for him.

I wouldn't dare politics interfere with friendship, good for you for not letting that happen.

 

[idestroyedthetoilet]

As I said, the cuts should have helped the 95% more. I don't care about the 1%. We can thank lobbyists for the actual breakdown of % savings between the 5% and the rest. Even Hillary stated the rich should be taxed more, but time and time again refused to answer how it would be done. She didn't want to alienate supporters. It is why I hate politicians.

We have seen an appreciable increase in overall taxes collected, even more than predicted. More than has ever been collected. Do you think we need to collect more?

And while I have no sympathy for the top 6%, I feel like they are carrying their weight :

https://taxfoundation.org/summary-latest-federal-income-tax-data-2016-update/

Both in amount and %, the top 5% are paying 60% of all income tax at nearly a 24% tax rate. The bottom 50% pay about 4%. Reducing the % paid by the middle class should have been done (largest burden to income ratio) but no politicians seem to have that on their agenda.

It was mathematically impossible to do much at all for the 95%, even by exploding the deficit more than we did. The best we could have and should have done IMO was freeze or raise taxes on those 1.13 million households and given the bottom 5,000,000 households another 2,000/yr in transfer payments. That would have lowered welfare burden somewhat and given deficit relief. Brookings Institute has a study (somewhere I cant find right now) on expanding the EITC in a completely tax neutral manner (both in not raising taxes or increasing the deficit) that would lift some 3 million households above the poverty line. Beefing that up with even more incentive to work could have gone a long ways at no expense to the 99% and little noticed by the 1%, if at all. Hell, the .1 and .01% could have shouldered a good chunk (and many happily would according to them).

We could have easily chopped the deficit increase by 50 billion/yr (2018 projected as the baseline) between a combination of transfer payments and spending reductions, all while helping the economy boom and keeping everyone even happier economically than we are right now.

 

[str8line]

I wouldn't dare politics interfere with friendship, good for you for not letting that happen.

But is it political? It's not.

How do you reconcile civility with a person who wants such an uncivil person to be our President?

l know a guy(not really a friend but I see him from time to time) who is a abuser of women. He's a great motorcycle rider and we briefly talk shop on occasion but when I found out I decided instantly I would avoid him and not support him in any manner.

Trump's constant transgressions and his psychosis affects our entire nation. The damage is real. Not political damage, but the damage of who we are as a people. Only history will know how deeply it changes us, but I'm pessimistic about the outcome.

I have changed my friendships because of Trump just as I've changed friendships over the years when I've lost respect for a person. I do it for myself, not in any hope that I'll change that person or they will come around.

Luckily very few of my friends support Trump and a few have turned on Trump after voting for him.

 

[Red]

I wouldn't dare politics interfere with friendship, good for you for not letting that happen.

Thanks. Because I know my friend well, for many years, and because he is an intelligent and thoughtful individual, with a lot of heart and compassion for others, it really leaves me no choice but to believe there must be many Trump supporters who could be described the same way. It's one reason I think the divide in America is a situation that might best be described as a tragedy. I know there are a fair share of "deplorables" among Trump supporters, those who revel in and support his bigoted points of view, the alt right, the white nationalists, all those elements that seem to represent dark elements in our society. He has the capacity to bring out the worse in such people. He wants their support, regardless of his weak efforts to keep them at arms length when forced to. I doubt I will ever want anything to do with those supporters of Trump.

But I'm left with the knowledge that I am a good man who does not understand how people like my friend can believe as they do, and that people like him are left with the knowledge that they are good and cannot understand how people like me believe as I do. How this all came to be puzzles me more then anything else in the narrative that is America in the Trump era. I can appreciate when people say if, after all that Trump has done, one still supports him, then there must be something wrong with one. But knowing people like my friend makes me realize it just is not that simple.

But I'm on the side I'm on. I can feel sorry for Trump, he's human, and he's insecure and a man child, but I loathe him at the same time, for being a cynical demagogue who is willing to do to America what he is doing. It's wrong, it's so wrong. The sooner he goes, the better. But it won't bridge the divides or dampen the animosities. America will be a deeply divided society for a long time yet, I fear.

 

[str8line]

Joe Biden delivered a beautiful eulogy for John McCain:

https://www.townandcountrymag.com/s...-eulogy-john-mccain-memorial-full-transcript/

"John's story is an American story. It's not hyperbole. it's the American story. grounded in respect and decency. basic fairness. the intolerance through the abuse of power. Many of you travel the world, look how the rest of the world looks at us. They look at us a little naive, so fair, so decent. We are the naive Americans. that's who we are. That's who John was. He could not stand the abuse of power. wherever he saw it, in whatever form, in whatever ways. He loved basic values, fairness, honesty, dignity, respect, giving hate no safe harbor, leaving no one behind and understanding Americans were part of something much bigger than ourselves."

"It wasn't about politics with John. He could disagree on substance, but the underlying values that animated everything John did, everything he was, come to a different conclusion. He'd part company with you, if you lacked the basic values of decency, respect, knowing this project is bigger than yourself."

 

[str8line]

Thanks. Because I know my friend well, for many years, and because he is an intelligent and thoughtful individual, with a lot of heart and compassion for others, it really leaves me no choice but to believe there must be many Trump supporters who could be described the same way. It's one reason I think the divide in America is a situation that might best be described as a tragedy. I know there are a fair share of "deplorables" among Trump supporters, those who revel in and support his bigoted points of view, the alt right, the white nationalists, all those elements that seem to represent dark elements in our society. He has the capacity to bring out the worse in such people. He wants their support, regardless of his weak efforts to keep them at arms length when forced to. I doubt I will ever want anything to do with those supporters of Trump.

But I'm left with the knowledge that I am a good man who does not understand how people like my friend can believe as they do, and that people like him are left with the knowledge that they are good and cannot understand how people like me believe as I do. How this all came to be puzzles me more then anything else in the narrative that is America in the Trump era. I can appreciate when people say if, after all that Trump has done, one still supports him, then there must be something wrong with one. But knowing people like my friend makes me realize it just is not that simple.

But I'm on the side I'm on. I can feel sorry for Trump, he's human, and he's insecure and a man child, but I loathe him at the same time, for being a cynical demagogue who is willing to do to America what he is doing. It's wrong, it's so wrong. The sooner he goes, the better. But it won't bridge the divides or dampen the animosities. America will be a deeply divided society for a long time yet, I fear.

Incredibly well said, Red.

 

[Jazzta]

But is it political? It's not.

How do you reconcile civility with a person who wants such an uncivil person to be our President?

l know a guy(not really a friend but I see him from time to time) who is a abuser of women. He's a great motorcycle rider and we briefly talk shop on occasion but when I found out I decided instantly I would avoid him and not support him in any manner.

Trump's constant transgressions and his psychosis affects our entire nation. The damage is real. Not political damage, but the damage of who we are as a people. Only history will know how deeply it changes us, but I'm pessimistic about the outcome.

I have changed my friendships because of Trump just as I've changed friendships over the years when I've lost respect for a person. I do it for myself, not in any hope that I'll change that person or they will come around.

Luckily very few of my friends support Trump and a few have turned on Trump after voting for him.

Bear in mind that some people, like myself, bought into his rhetoric of wanting to help the working middle class. There are people that voted for Trump for some reasons, and some that voted for him for other, more obscure reasons. It’s not fair to put some Trump or ex-Trump followers in the same bag. People like Thriller or Dutch are who polarize the scene.

 

[str8line]

Bear in mind that some people, like myself, bought into his rhetoric of wanting to help the working middle class. There are people that voted for Trump for some reasons, and some that voted for him for other, more obscure reasons. It’s not fair to put some Trump or ex-Trump followers in the same bag. People like Thriller or Dutch are who polarize the scene.

I agree, not fair to put everyone in the same bag. I still don't understand how people couldn't see who he was long before he was elected but I guess people thought he might become Presidential. At this point those who support him are just messed up people.

 

[str8line]

Trump's disapproval at all-time high.

https://www.yahoo.com/gma/trouble-t...ller-half-112416277--abc-news-topstories.html

 

[idestroyedthetoilet]

I'm a public sector worker, over the last ten years the cost of parking at my work has increased by 1500p/a my wages have increased by slightly less in that time. if i didn't have outside sources of income i'd be screwed or a least working in another job, its a joke. The worst bit is the excuses that management trawl out for this nonsense, the best one for a near 50 percent increase in the cost of parking was to encourage staff to take public transport to improve our green footprint. Makes perfect sense if you live in the city and can walk or grab a tram and be at work in 10 minutes, at the time i was living in one of Melbourne's high crime suburbs, catching the train to a night shift was dangerous for me and i'm 6'2 280 pounds, let alone an immigrant cleaner or kitchen hand. That is i think the perfect example of the liberal elite, tell all the right lies, then act exactly like the Tories and pretend to claim the moral high ground.

I've been searching all morning for exact figures but can't find them so you'll have to take my word for it.

At one point during the Great Recession, I calculated compounded Utah State worker pay increases and compared that to inflation. State workers took over a 20% pay deduction in real terms. At the same time, new hires took more than a 5% cut to retirement benefits and insurance premiums went up, even in years where total HC costs went down. Employee portion of medical care went up plenty. They call it "co-insurance" now, an absurd, nonsensical term. Total compensation probably went down by close to 30% in 5 years, and more for low wage earners who pay disproportionately higher % towards HC.

To make matters worse, merit increase is virtually non-existant in Utah state employment. This is problematic, not only for morale, but because we live in an economy built around earning increases typically coming as you progress through life and gain skill (duh). The opposite of "Prime earning years" tends to happen to state employees chained to the golden leash, as pay diminishes while you get stuck to pension years of service.

Unlike your situation, this is driven largely by the population but compounded drastically by do-gooders and special interests on the Hill. For example, one year when tax receipts were booming Governor Herbert thought he could only find $7.6 million for total employee compensation increases, an amount below inflation, but requested something like $18 million to retrofit a handful of school buses to satisfy his clean air pet project. 18 million for 35 ****ing buses. A real pay cut for thousands. Ask yourself, do you think changing 35 old buses to natural gas is going to do a damn thing for our bad air? No, not a damn measurable bit of difference. But a huge cost. When it wasn't funded Gov. Herbert unsuccessfully pushed for it again the next year. That's the state of the state and how we get took.

 

[Jazzta]

I've been searching all morning for exact figures but can't find them so you'll have to take my word for it.

At one point during the Great Recession, I calculated compounded Utah State worker pay increases and compared that to inflation. State workers took over a 20% pay deduction in real terms. At the same time, new hires took more than a 5% cut to retirement benefits and insurance premiums went up, even in years where total HC costs went down. Employee portion of medical care went up plenty. They call it "co-insurance" now, an absurd, nonsensical term. Total compensation probably went down by close to 30% in 5 years, and more for low wage earners who pay disproportionately higher % towards HC.

To make matters worse, merit increase is virtually non-existant in Utah state employment. This is problematic, not only for morale, but because we live in an economy built around earning increases typically coming as you progress through life and gain skill (duh). The opposite of "Prime earning years" tends to happen to state employees chained to the golden leash, as pay diminishes while you get stuck to pension years of service.

Unlike your situation, this is driven largely by the population but compounded drastically by do-gooders and special interests on the Hill. For example, one year when tax receipts were booming Governor Herbert thought he could only find $7.6 million for total employee compensation increases, an amount below inflation, but requested something like $18 million to retrofit a handful of school buses to satisfy his clean air pet project. 18 million for 35 ****ing buses. A real pay cut for thousands. Ask yourself, do you think changing 35 old buses to natural gas is going to do a damn thing for our bad air? No, not a damn measurable bit of difference. But a huge cost. When it wasn't funded Gov. Herbert unsuccessfully pushed for it again the next year. That's the state of the state and how we get took.

Why do you think I left the state, all that and nepotism, and not being part of the “club”. I’m way off better now.

 

[Gameface]

Why do you think I left the state, all that and nepotism, and not being part of the “club”. I’m way off better now.

Wait! You're not in Utah anymore?