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Supreme Court Justice Kennedy to Retire

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So... in a nutshell, the Republicans are presuming Kavanaugh is innocent unless/until sufficient evidence indicates otherwise. The Democrats are presuming Kavanaugh likely did assault Ford because #ibelieveher, and even if he didn't do it, they don't like him due to his temperament. Both sides are politically motivated, split along party lines, grandstanding, and have the same position as they did since before Kavanuagh was named as the nominee.

Like someone said before, sexual assault accusations have now become a bipartisan issue.

That's where we're at in this country.

People shouldn't give a **** or be more motivated to condemn or condone a sexual assaulter because of their political beliefs just like people shouldn't believe accusations, or disbelieve accusations made by someone because of their political beliefs.
 
That hasn't been my experience, but I'm not going to pretend I've read every one of their posts.

It has been the experience, as far as I can tell, of anyone who contradicts or disagrees with him.

He’s condemned millions on this site openly. He simply bases his vitriol along political lines instead of the traditional things like ethnicity, religion, gender... it’s really not any different when you boil it down.
 
I'm sure you are right, but as I think through the conversations I've been a part of this kind of behavior seems to have become more prevalent on the left.

For example, I rarely look at Facebook but last night I did. I saw a post a friend made flipping off the Trump Tower and read dozens of sympathetic replies. There were non-angry, non-hateful responses. Then I saw a post that another friend made in support of Kavanaugh. You would have thought the poster murdered several people's babies by the level of angry responses he received.

I have been called a lot of names and characterized in a lot of negative ways on this site. I don't think I've said anything to elicit such a venomous response, but it seems to be the way that many on the left respond these days. I'm probably overlooking something, but I can not think of many similar hateful responses to left-wing posters.
Please give me an example of what you're accusing me of.
You must've missed stoked's tirade from a few nights ago calling us a bunch of sanctimonious assholes lol. In my experience as a lefty I'm often accused of being naive, of having faux outrage, being a paid soros shill (lol), back in the Bush years of being an un-American who hates his country etc.

I chalk this kind of stuff up to the internet being kind of a crappy place tbh.
 
This, in spades. It is hilarious how many people here (an in our country really) have this fallacy that if you aren't for one side you must be 100% for the other. And it is intellectually lazy to keep saying "oh not another 'both sides suck' comment". Both sides do suck. There is a middle in this country, and frankly the vast majority of people actually fall somewhere to the right of the left and to the left of the right. The best thing we could have happen in our political world would be the rise of a third viable party.

I cannot stand Trump. He has proven himself to be a misogynist, racist, self-serving, unstable blow-hard. Sorry, but that truth, does not make a claim that the democrats then are the exact opposite, without fault and perfect in every way, to be true. It is truly a lesser of 2 evils right now. And the in-fighting is worse than it has ever been in our country. It is painfully obvious, for those who can slip the blinders long enough to look, that both sides are only about the power. Not that the power dynamic hasn't always been an issue, but how often in the last 20 years have you heard about politicians voting against party lines because it is what their constituency would want, or because it is for the betterment of the country, or because they realize that to help people we need some compromise? Hardly ever, imo. There was a time not too long ago (if 30 years isn't too long, feels short when you are getting old), when this happened with some regularity, and the government not so arguably ran far better than it does now. How many times in the history of our country has a congress failed to pass a budget? It is becoming more and more common for the disagreements to extend out the time to pass budgetary bills.

FT_17.12.19_approps_onTime.png


So stop the act that, since the republicans right now are largely assholes and degenerates (Jazz Fanz company excepted of course, and not really representative of the entirety of the republican party), it does not immediately mean that all democrats need to be sainted for their purity and moral superiority. They are all power-hungry. And the partisanship right now is incredibly damaging to the US as a whole.

So it is not only possible, but reasonable and logical, to be unhappy with both sides. If your kids are playing in the mud, will you punish the one who is the dirtiest and reward the one who might be less dirty at the moment?

But yes, right now we need some parity in congress to balance out the crap. A ****-scale if you will, balanced by cow pies on one side and dog turds on the other. Because the worst possible scenarios play out when only the ******* or the ******* run the entire show.
I want to make sweet love to this post. You articulate things way better than I could. It probably doesn't help starting replies with, "I want to make sweet love to this post" or ending them with, "hehepeepeecaca," but you get the point.

Internet Wi Fi aka high five (this doesn't help either.)
 
It has been the experience, as far as I can tell, of anyone who contradicts or disagrees with him.

He’s condemned millions on this site openly. He simply bases his vitriol along political lines instead of the traditional things like ethnicity, religion, gender... it’s really not any different when you boil it down.
The ****er went after me one time for being divorced. The guy is 100% piece of ****.
 
So... in a nutshell, the Republicans are presuming Kavanaugh is innocent unless/until sufficient evidence indicates otherwise. The Democrats are presuming Kavanaugh likely did assault Ford because #ibelieveher, and even if he didn't do it, they don't like him due to his temperament. Both sides are politically motivated, split along party lines, grandstanding, and have the same position as they did since before Kavanuagh was named as the nominee.
Both Kavanaugh and Blasey-Ford were effective and "compelling". One way to make sense of the "he said, she said" is that it was someone else who attacked her. Republicans favor this possibility. Another way to make sense of it is that Brett Kavanaugh was a heavy teenage drinker and he may have done exactly what she said he did, and it just didn't register as a big deal and he forgot about it. He did not rape her, he never got her clothes off, and both of the boys present were laughing. (According to the victim). As scary and traumatizing as it would have been to her, for the boys it could have been not such a big deal. A failed attempt, that faded from memory. His reluctance to be truthful about his drinking behavior, leads me to believe that is closer to the truth than the mistaken identity idea. Other explanations require belief that Blasey-Ford is part of the conspiracy to keep the dems from turning the tables on the repubs and keeping the seat open until the next presidential election. Anyone who watched her testimony with an open mind will find that hard to swallow.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using JazzFanz mobile app
 
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This, in spades. It is hilarious how many people here (an in our country really) have this fallacy that if you aren't for one side you must be 100% for the other. And it is intellectually lazy to keep saying "oh not another 'both sides suck' comment". Both sides do suck. There is a middle in this country, and frankly the vast majority of people actually fall somewhere to the right of the left and to the left of the right. The best thing we could have happen in our political world would be the rise of a third viable party.

I cannot stand Trump. He has proven himself to be a misogynist, racist, self-serving, unstable blow-hard. Sorry, but that truth, does not make a claim that the democrats then are the exact opposite, without fault and perfect in every way, to be true. It is truly a lesser of 2 evils right now. And the in-fighting is worse than it has ever been in our country. It is painfully obvious, for those who can slip the blinders long enough to look, that both sides are only about the power. Not that the power dynamic hasn't always been an issue, but how often in the last 20 years have you heard about politicians voting against party lines because it is what their constituency would want, or because it is for the betterment of the country, or because they realize that to help people we need some compromise? Hardly ever, imo. There was a time not too long ago (if 30 years isn't too long, feels short when you are getting old), when this happened with some regularity, and the government not so arguably ran far better than it does now. How many times in the history of our country has a congress failed to pass a budget? It is becoming more and more common for the disagreements to extend out the time to pass budgetary bills.

FT_17.12.19_approps_onTime.png


So stop the act that, since the republicans right now are largely assholes and degenerates (Jazz Fanz company excepted of course, and not really representative of the entirety of the republican party), it does not immediately mean that all democrats need to be sainted for their purity and moral superiority. They are all power-hungry. And the partisanship right now is incredibly damaging to the US as a whole.

So it is not only possible, but reasonable and logical, to be unhappy with both sides. If your kids are playing in the mud, will you punish the one who is the dirtiest and reward the one who might be less dirty at the moment?

But yes, right now we need some parity in congress to balance out the crap. A ****-scale if you will, balanced by cow pies on one side and dog turds on the other. Because the worst possible scenarios play out when only the ******* or the ******* run the entire show.

And working together for the common good was attacked all the same, just as the good old boys club at it again instead of blockage. Damned if they do, damned if they dont.

Populism won't change with changed voting strategies. It's sad they have to even have a voting strategy to begin with, but that's what the people have created.

And there is a third party. They're called the blue dogs and both parties hate them. Find one and vote for her/him. Problem solved.
 
You must've missed stoked's tirade from a few nights ago calling us a bunch of sanctimonious assholes lol. In my experience as a lefty I'm often accused of being naive, of having faux outrage, being a paid soros shill (lol), back in the Bush years of being an un-American who hates his country etc.

I chalk this kind of stuff up to the internet being kind of a crappy place tbh.

I was drunk, my apologies.

But generally speaking it needed to be said. Way to much vitriol pointed at way to many. About whom we don’t know ****.
 
And working together for the common good was attacked all the same, just as the good old boys club at it again instead of blockage. Damned if they do, damned if they dont.

Populism won't change with changed voting strategies. It's sad they have to even have a voting strategy to begin with, but that's what the people have created.

And there is a third party. They're called the blue dogs and both parties hate them. Find one and vote for her/him. Problem solved.
This opinion is probably not that popular but I think what this country really needs is a truly left wing party with strong support for labor and whose primary interest isn't Wallstreet and corporate donors.

From a global perspective we have a far right wing party, and a centrist party, no wonder the average American's interests aren't well represented.
 
Both Kavanaugh and Blasey-Ford were effective and "compelling". One way to make sense of the "he said, she said" is that it was someone else who attacked her. Republicans favor this possibility. Another way to make sense of it is that Brett Kavanaugh was a heavy teenage drinker and he may have done exactly what she said he did, and it just didn't register as a big deal and he forgot about it. He did not rape her, he never got her clothes off, and both of the boys present were laughing. (According to the victim). As scary and traumatizing as it would have been to her, for the boys out could have been not such a big deal. A failed attempt, that faded from memory. His reluctance to be truthful about his drinking behavior, leads me to believe that is closer to the truth than the mistaken identity idea. Other explanations require belief that Blasey-Ford is part of the conspiracy to keep the dems from turning the tables on the repubs and keeping the seat open until the next presidential election. Anyone who watched her testimony with an open mind will find that hard to swallow.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using JazzFanz mobile app

There are a couple of important facts in Ford's story that just don't make sense to me --

1) She went to the party during the summer from the country club, where she used to swim and practice diving. She would know which years of high school she did this. It doesn't make sense that the timing in her testimonies varied from mid-80s to early 80s and from late-teens to then honing in on when she was 15. There shouldn't have been much if any a discrepancy in her account of what year this happened.

2) I've said this before, but based on her story, it sure sounds like this party took place at the home of Kavanaugh, Judge or PJ. Those were the 3 guys who were there drinking. They were obviously familiar and comfortable with the house. It's unlikely that these teenagers were drinking in someone else's house. They allegedly followed Ford upstairs with bad intentions. (They must've known where the upstairs bedroom was.) So that's 3 specific addresses that she and her friends could verify. In one afternoon, they could look at the homes where these boys lived. Yet, she can't nail down the neighborhood. There's a national campaign of support for her, and no one wants to help her revisit three residences to give investigators something to go investigate? She herself doesn't want to make the effort to do this?

On top of this, I don't like the fact that the lawyers getting involved with these accusers are fervent Democratic activists. Maybe these are the attorneys who are willing to work pro bono, but it doesn't help the credibility of the allegations. I also don't like the way Feinstein apparently recommended attorneys for Ford and handled the timing of the release of her story after hearings had concluded. It shows political motive on the part of everyone involved.
 
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There are a couple of important facts in Ford's story that just don't make sense to me --

1) She went to the party during the summer from the country club, where she used to swim and practice diving. She would know which years of high school she did this. It doesn't make sense that the timing in her testimonies varied from mid-80s to early 80s and from late-teens to then honing in on when she was 15. There shouldn't have been much if any a discrepancy in her account of what year this happened.

In informal settings, 1982 could be described as either middle 80s or early 80s and 15 is not too soon be thought of as late teens.

2) I've said this before, but based on her story, it sure sounds like this party took place at the home of Kavanaugh, Judge or PJ. Those were the 3 guys who were there drinking.

Not the only 3, though. From the beginning, Ford has said there were at least 4 guys.

There's a national campaign of support for her, and no one wants to help her revisit three residences to give investigators something to go investigate? She herself doesn't want to make the effort to do this?

You're surprised she doesn't want to revisit a scene where she was assaulted?
 
I went to many parties in the 80s (and I am a few years older than Ford). I didn't drink, but I still can not tell you much about any of those parties - who was there, who I went with, who I went home with, where the houses were located, etc. I do remember a couple of things that happened at parties, not to the same degree as Ford's experience, but just because I remember a small part of something disturbing that happened does not mean that I remember every other detail about that experience. That is not how memory works. I would not believe her to be credible if she had been able to provide all of those details. She would have had to be making things up. And this is part of why I believe her version over Kavanaugh's.
 
I went to many parties in the 80s (and I am a few years older than Ford). I didn't drink, but I still can not tell you much about any of those parties - who was there, who I went with, who I went home with, where the houses were located, etc. I do remember a couple of things that happened at parties, not to the same degree as Ford's experience, but just because I remember a small part of something disturbing that happened does not mean that I remember every other detail about that experience. That is not how memory works. I would not believe her to be credible if she had been able to provide all of those details. She would have had to be making things up. And this is part of why I believe her version over Kavanaugh's.

That’s something I’ve thought about. If Ford was lying, wouldn’t she tell a more detailed story to fill in gaps to make herself seem more believable, and if she was lying why would she ask or want an fbi investigation, because at first she refused to answer questions without first having an investigation.

Wondering what everyone thinks about that?


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There are a couple of important facts in Ford's story that just don't make sense to me --

1) She went to the party during the summer from the country club, where she used to swim and practice diving. She would know which years of high school she did this. It doesn't make sense that the timing in her testimonies varied from mid-80s to early 80s and from late-teens to then honing in on when she was 15. There shouldn't have been much if any a discrepancy in her account of what year this happened.

2) I've said this before, but based on her story, it sure sounds like this party took place at the home of Kavanaugh, Judge or PJ. Those were the 3 guys who were there drinking. They were obviously familiar and comfortable with the house. It's unlikely that these teenagers were drinking in someone else's house. They allegedly followed Ford upstairs with bad intentions. (They must've known where the upstairs bedroom was.) So that's 3 specific addresses that she and her friends could verify. In one afternoon, they could look at the homes where these boys lived. Yet, she can't nail down the neighborhood. There's a national campaign of support for her, and no one wants to help her revisit three residences to give investigators something to go investigate? She herself doesn't want to make the effort to do this?

On top of this, I don't like the fact that the lawyers getting involved with these accusers are fervent Democratic activists. Maybe these are the attorneys who are willing to work pro bono, but it doesn't help the credibility of the allegations. I also don't like the way Feinstein apparently recommended attorneys for Ford and handled the timing of the release of her story after hearings had concluded. It shows political motive on the part of everyone involved.

Catch
Where are you getting your facts from? Maybe it will make more sense if we review her actual testimony. Found here: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/national/wp/2018/09/27/kavanaugh-hearing-transcript/

1. She stated the party was during the summer of 1982. I don't see any discrepancy there. Where are you seeing it? From earlier statements? Regardless, in her testimony, under penalty of felony, she was clear...summer of 1982

2. I think you are making some assumptions here. First in her testimony CBF clarifies that this wasn't really a party as has been erroneously reported. It was more of a casual spur of the moment gathering, she says she believes that there was going to be an actual party later on. So the boys could have been drinking prior to arrival, or drinking at the gathering, it could have been at the house of one of the four boys she remembers being there or someone else's that she does not recall. So there is some question as to how many people were there, she remembers the four boys and her friend, there could have been others. You are correct that she can not remember the neighborhood. But it is, IMO, 180 degrees out to think this means she does not want to know. From the beginning she has been asking for a complete and thorough investigation be made. Do you really believe it should be up to the victim to track down every pertinent fact and provide them to investigators? That is a high bar no one could live with in her place.

3(on top) Yep you are right, there are lawyers involved. I don't doubt that Democrats are using this to try to get their way. They surely have a political motive. Christine Blasey Ford would want a lawyer, who wouldn't? She got recommendations from the people who were supporting her. FWIW Feinstein denies leaking the allegations, and the media the released them confirms that it was not her office. But it is not beyond the pale to think the democrats, or their minions, are behind the leak. When you say "everyone involved" Do you think Christine Blasey Ford is complicit? That she is bringing these allegations a part of the plot to derail the confirmation? She first made her accusations in time to keep Brett Kavanaugh off the short list, knowing that he was one of the names President Trump had put forward during the election. You can fault the Democrats for overplaying the hand they were dealt, but that should not take away credibility from Ford.
 
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I want one or both of these people to go to jail for perjury.

either ford or kav is lying or prolly both!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


or never ever arrest anyone on perjury again! and release everyone immediately who is locked up for perjury
 
That’s something I’ve thought about. If Ford was lying, wouldn’t she tell a more detailed story to fill in gaps to make herself seem more believable, and if she was lying why would she ask or want an fbi investigation, because at first she refused to answer questions without first having an investigation.

Wondering what everyone thinks about that?


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yeah, liars would do the research and not leave the gaps. Her telling is consistent with the way trauma works on memory...though as a psychologist she would know that. Not that I'm saying she left the gaps on purpose. She probably chose psychology as a field of study, at least in part, because of this. Many people in my field, social work, have similar experiences. It is not at all uncommon.
 
You must've missed stoked's tirade from a few nights ago calling us a bunch of sanctimonious assholes lol. In my experience as a lefty I'm often accused of being naive, of having faux outrage, being a paid soros shill (lol), back in the Bush years of being an un-American who hates his country etc.

I chalk this kind of stuff up to the internet being kind of a crappy place tbh.
I guess it makes sense that we're more aware of the anger being directed at us personally. I thought Log's recent post about the entire situation was excellent.

But my wife recently reminded me of the bottom line:
Life is short. Make sure you spend as much time as possible arguing politics on the internet with strangers.
 
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