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Game 31--Jazz at Houston. (allegedly)

Handlogten's Heros said:
The good news is the offense was ugly AF and we still almost beat Houston on the road and it took a monster Harden game. Houston is toast unless CP shows he can stay on the court and play at a high level. Dude looked washed and he’s been a Jazz killer in the past.
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Almost, could have, should have...and if we had three more bonafide NBA starters, Jazz could contend.

All excuses to hide the fact that this roster sucks. Lindsey has been mailing it in while Starks puts a fat check in his account every 2 weeks. Must be so nice to be the Jazz' GM. Add a draft pick, re-sign everyone else and make a token move every now and again.
 
Jack Strop said:
Almost, could have, should have...and if we had three more bonafide NBA starters, Jazz could contend.

All excuses to hide the fact that this roster sucks. Lindsey has been mailing it in while Starks puts a fat check in his account every 2 weeks. Must be so nice to be the Jazz' GM. Add a draft pick, re-sign everyone else and make a token move every now and again.
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I don't think he's lazy... there were some reasons to see how it rolled forward. If we get through the trade deadline and we haven't improved or made a solid move then I think you can argue he is being too passive.

I think we have good parts, but like the bench unit.. you have Royce (good defense decent shooter when he actually shoots it), Dante (can defend in some matchups), Thabo (similar to Royce), Favs (does some good things obvi), Korver (great shooter)... but not really a creator, shot hunter, type. It's like a car with great tires, interior, and suspension... but no engine or frame. It just isn't gonna have a ton of success. I don't think it needs much, but a scorer like Joe Johnson back in the day or a more ball dominant aggressive scorer... if you added that to the mix then it balances and works well. Sub in Jeremy Lin, Darren Collison, or a Jordan Clarkson (I don't want the actual Jordan Clarkson or his contract) type with the bench parts and I think it might work really well.

We tried to make Jae that guy and it isn't effective. IDK what the solution is, but it isn't on the roster. If we parlayed our cap space into another creator and another shooter I think it really helps. We might wait for FA for big solutions and I think it might be a mistake.
 
Jack Strop said:
Almost, could have, should have...and if we had three more bonafide NBA starters, Jazz could contend.

All excuses to hide the fact that this roster sucks. Lindsey has been mailing it in while Starks puts a fat check in his account every 2 weeks. Must be so nice to be the Jazz' GM. Add a draft pick, re-sign everyone else and make a token move every now and again.
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I’m glad this “tough stretch” has revealed exactly who you are. A straight-up finger-pointing crybaby. That fact lurked under the surface for too long.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
We do that.. Rudy missed a dunk and a layup last night. Spacing will help guys finish as it is harder to contest when shooters are on the floor.

The good news is the offense was ugly AF and we still almost beat Houston on the road and it took a monster Harden game. Houston is toast unless CP shows he can stay on the court and play at a high level. Dude looked washed and he’s been a Jazz killer in the past.
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I don't think we have ever done that in that short time frame. Can't really blame it on spacing, those are all easy shots save for maybe one or two of them which are only moderately difficult.
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
I don't think we have ever done that in that short time frame. Can't really blame it on spacing, those are all easy shots save for maybe one or two of them which are only moderately difficult.
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I agree... Royce misses a lot and Dante and Ricky are both not great at the rim. We shot really bad from 3 too.

Honestly after that game I’d be more worried about the rockets than the Jazz.

I just think there are a couple good tweaks to the roster that are fairly reasonable that could really help tip things a bit.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
I agree... Royce misses a lot and Dante and Ricky are both not great at the rim. We shot really bad from 3 too.

Honestly after that game I’d be more worried about the rockets than the Jazz.

I just think there are a couple good tweaks to the roster that are fairly reasonable that could really help tip things a bit.
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Royce doesnt miss that much. Exum does, but Royce is about NBA average.
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
Royce doesnt miss that much. Exum does, but Royce is about NBA average.
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He misses some non contested bunnies though. Exum and Rubios are largely contested. When Royce gets to rise up he will throw it on people’s heads... helps his percentage. On layup attempts he lacks touch sometimes.
 
LoPo said:
Mitchell was an absolute megastar in the Houston series. You know what I just realized? Rubio wasn't there so he had to dominate. He is obviously deferring this season.

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Um, Donovan shot 34% from the floor, 25% from 3 in that series. He stunk.

Edit: I get that 'he attacked' but 97 points on 125 possessions isn't good. In fact, it's terrible.
 
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RickyStan said:
He's shooting 34.8% from 3 since the 2nd game of the season. If Joe's an average shooter instead of an awesome one it hurts his value tremendously.
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Eh, I think that's an exaggeration. I think he's still been the third most valuable player on the team even with his shooting woes this season. His plus/minus this season has been better than anyone on the team, even Gobert, in fact he ranks 34th in the league. I believe we're around 15 points better per 100 possessions with him on the floor than when he's off. His defense has been really good, he's finishing well at the rim, his passing and playmaking have been good. Not to mention the locker room presence and leadership he provides. He's much more than just a shooter.
 
fishonjazz said:
Really? Did you read the post a few before yours about the ratio of field goals vs free throws? If you truly believe what you posted then put some stats where your mouth is and post Stockton's ratio of field goals to free throws. I'm guessing that harden and Stockton aren't even close.

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that stat tells you how good players are at drawing fouls. It has very little to do with anything else.
fishonjazz said:
Really? Did you read the post a few before yours about the ratio of field goals vs free throws? If you truly believe what you posted then put some stats where your mouth is and post Stockton's ratio of field goals to free throws. I'm guessing that harden and Stockton aren't even close.

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The stat you guys are in love with does not support your claim at all. Ratio of field goals to free throws? Y'all serious?

You think the fact that Steph's ratio is unfavorable to Harden's is simply because Harden gets so many bad calls in his favor? Why are the refs biased for Harden and not for Steph? Look at Dirk's ratio. It has nothing to do with referee bias and everything to do with the fact that Dirk creates many shots by creating space (step back) and he shoots from distance.

Y'all are totally missing that the ratio has to do with style of play and a player's ability to draw legitimate fouls. When Harden sweeps through on players who are dumb enough to guard him with their hands forward, it is chicken **** annoying, but it is a correct call.

Comparing Stockton and Harden's ratios is equally silly, comparing a pass-first point guard to a dominant scorer who thrives on contact and going to the rim? Please, you guys are all much smarter than that. Given Stockton's style, he absolutely knew how to draw cheap fouls. If you have not watched him play hundreds of games, just listen to his opponents and teammates. He was brilliant. He's trap an opponent's arm under his arm and pretend he was being held, for example. Had a million tricks, which is why he was widely considered "dirty" (although I thought he was "devious" not "dirty" since he never hurt anyone).
 
NAOS said:
Stockton attempted 13,658 field goals
He attempted 5,796 free throws

It took me two minutes to find this info on the internet.... less time than it took you to get huffy in your last two posts and then walk away without contributing your own evidence.
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yeah, I looked it up too. But I've kinda got a busy life and don't log on to the site every day. responded elsewhere.

When you find a "bad call" ratio we can discuss. You can find data in the last 2 minute report. But debating using misapplied stats is not my thing, y'all can have at it.
 
silesian said:
that stat tells you how good players are at drawing fouls. It has very little to do with anything else.


The stat you guys are in love with does not support your claim at all. Ratio of field goals to free throws? Y'all serious?

You think the fact that Steph's ratio is unfavorable to Harden's is simply because Harden gets so many bad calls in his favor? Why are the refs biased for Harden and not for Steph? Look at Dirk's ratio. It has nothing to do with referee bias and everything to do with the fact that Dirk creates many shots by creating space (step back) and he shoots from distance.

Y'all are totally missing that the ratio has to do with style of play and a player's ability to draw legitimate fouls. When Harden sweeps through on players who are dumb enough to guard him with their hands forward, it is chicken **** annoying, but it is a correct call.

Comparing Stockton and Harden's ratios is equally silly, comparing a pass-first point guard to a dominant scorer who thrives on contact and going to the rim? Please, you guys are all much smarter than that. Given Stockton's style, he absolutely knew how to draw cheap fouls. If you have not watched him play hundreds of games, just listen to his opponents and teammates. He was brilliant. He's trap an opponent's arm under his arm and pretend he was being held, for example. Had a million tricks, which is why he was widely considered "dirty" (although I thought he was "devious" not "dirty" since he never hurt anyone).
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Lol.
Ya Stockton got the same star calls as harden gets. Lol.

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silesian said:
yeah, I looked it up too. But I've kinda got a busy life and don't log on to the site every day. responded elsewhere.

When you find a "bad call" ratio we can discuss. You can find data in the last 2 minute report. But debating using misapplied stats is not my thing, y'all can have at it.
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I’m staying way out of this. But from what I can tell, it’s you who opened the can of worms.
 
silesian said:
Who said that? Are you arguing with an imaginary friend?


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We were talking about how the refs treat harden better than guys like LeBron, Kobe, Malone, Jordan etc. How no one has ever gotten more superstar calls than harden and it isn't close.

Then you brought up how Stockton exploited the refs too. Why would you bring that up unless you were comparing the two? Of course Stockton exploits the refs. Literally every player in the NBA does. Hell every player in recreation leagues and church ball does.

The point was that harden gets treated better by the refs than everyone else.

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fishonjazz said:
We were talking about how the refs treat harden better than guys like LeBron, Kobe, Malone, Jordan etc. How no one has ever gotten more superstar calls than harden and it isn't close.

Then you brought up how Stockton exploited the refs too. Why would you bring that up unless you were comparing the two? Of course Stockton exploits the refs. Literally every player in the NBA does. Hell every player in recreation leagues and church ball does.

The point was that harden gets treated better by the refs than everyone else.

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Yeah, you missed my point be a thousand country miles. If you want to re-read then we can continue the discussion. If not, have a nice day and Merry Christmas.
 
NAOS said:
I’m staying way out of this. But from what I can tell, it’s you who opened the can of worms.
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Yeah, I said the stat folks are using to "prove" referee bias does no such thing. If it did, you would have to believe that Harden got on the order of ~3,000 more blown calls than Michael freakin Jordan (see note). And I am sure you all believe that MJ got highly favorable treatment by the refs.

Think about this, guys, style of play and ability to exploit the rules are the drivers.

note: rough estimate based on difference between made FT and made FG, divided by 2. Far from precise due to missed FTs, 3-point plays, etc, but it is in this magnitude.
 
silesian said:
Yeah, you missed my point be a thousand country miles. If you want to re-read then we can continue the discussion. If not, have a nice day and Merry Christmas.
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If I missed your point then why not explain your point to me better.

I thought your point was that Stockton exploited the refs too (I agree) and that the calls harden gets are legit (I disagree)
Here is your post.

News flash: Most of the fouls against Harden are actually fouls. Most of the times fans think Harden is traveling, he is not (one notable exception on blown call yesterday). Most fans do not remotely understand the traveling rules.

There was another guy who knew exactly how to exploit the rules and draw fouls in underhanded ways. His last name was Stockton.

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