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Bojan vs Hayward

JFFR said:
I don’t remember him being a problem in the locker room.

He’s kind of an awkward dude, but not a problem.


Sent from my iPhone using JazzFanz mobile app
Click to expand...

Problem when your best player is an introverted wall flower.

Not knocking Gordon. He is who he is. We had a leadership vacuum.
 
Engorged On Unborn Gore said:
Not the 2017 Hayward.

Overall opposing FG%:
H17: 42.1
B19: 43.1

Opposing 3pt %:
H17: 33.3
B19: 35.8

Opposing 6-feet or less %:
H17: 61.0
B19: 59.6

Maybe you’re thinking of other metrics, though.
Click to expand...

These numbers can't be right, Cy said that Hayward was several layers better as a defender. That isn't several layers.

Now run Hayward's numbers when NOT paired with Gobert. . .
 
framer said:
These numbers can't be right, Cy said that Hayward was several layers better as a defender. That isn't several layers.

Now run Hayward's numbers when NOT paired with Gobert. . .
Click to expand...

Yeah, you make a fair point about Gobert. Hayward in ‘17 and Bogey in ‘20 would be a better comp.
 
tfivas said:
This is the epitome of creepy and weird
Click to expand...

Yep. What's even more weird is to fantasize about what if's on a player who stabbed his team in the back 3 years removed. I got what I wished for and moved on. Ya'll haven't moved on for 3 years because he looks like he could be selling you bibles. Whoops..... I mean books of J.C.O.L.D.S. If his broken leg went up for auction, I would buy it but only so I could break it even more. I'm normal.
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
Dawg you're dumb as hell for real.
Click to expand...
One of us worships a man who is a traitor and has promoted him for 3 years after backstabbing his team in his home town. (You) One of us has measured the Jazz success based on the amount of players that were, (and I quote) "American White", but then named several players that were born overseas. (Again, you). And your calling me dumb?
Yea, your opinion of me or anything else doesn't mean anything to me.
 
Lakers_Slapper said:
Yep. What's even more weird is to fantasize about what if's on a player who stabbed his team in the back 3 years removed. I got what I wished for and moved on. Ya'll haven't moved on for 3 years because he looks like he could be selling you bibles. Whoops..... I mean books of J.C.O.L.D.S. If his broken leg went up for auction, I would buy it but only so I could break it even more. I'm normal.
Click to expand...
Comparing new players to former players is something that happens here... a lot.

Sent from my SM-G973U using JazzFanz mobile app
 
JFFR said:
Oh my. What a post. You call me creepy, weird, and obsessed, and then admit to watching him break his leg every other day? Are you sure you’re not the one with the fetish?

I can’t tell if your post is being sarcastic or not. If not, you need help.

———-
Here’s my take, one last time.

Hayward chose to go to a bigger market. That sucks for us as Jazz fans but was well within his rights. I wish he would have given the Jazz the opportunity to trade him, but... oh well.

For me, the thing that hurt most is that the Jazz were building something. Dennis Lindsey always talked about “not skipping steps”. Well when Hayward left, it felt like the Jazz went back three steps (he may have only averaged 15ppg during his career with the Jazz, but that last year he was a legit All-Star.)

Fast forward 4 months after that fateful July 4th, and Donovan Mitchell saves the day. He helped the Jazz skip steps in their rebuild and filled in the holes Hayward left (at least for me, some people are still struggling to get over it, see Laker_Slapper’s post for an example.)

The question that has loomed for me is, what could the Jazz have done if Hayward stayed? Thabo and Crowder didn’t get It done. Sure I said Mitchell filled the holes Hayward left, but Mitchell only brought them back to a 4/5 seed. I trusted DL was building a championship roster and Hayward screwed him. Hayward/Gobert/Mitchell would have gone deeper in the playoffs. Who knows how far they would have gone???

Here’s the thing about Hayward though, I always felt like Hayward earned a max contact but he would be one of the worst max players in the league (even if he stayed healthy.) I felt like the Jazz had to offer the max to him, but it would hurt. It would take up too much salary space and limit the Jazz’s future options.


Looking back at that Hayward contract, I’m hopeful that Bojan at $17 million fills in so much better than Hayward at $27 (even if you create an alternate universe where Hayward signed with the Jazz, never got injured, and continued to get better.) I’m not ready to say Bojan is better than Hayward would have been, but I’m hoping he’ll be a better value and fill a lot of the role Hayward used to fill.

For years Jazz fans looked for someone to fill in when Horny left. Starks, Cheney, Lewis, etc. (no one did it.). I guess I’ve been looking for someone to fill in for Hayward.

I was hoping the discussion would go that direction, but it looks like it’s impossible for most Jazz fans to have a mature conversation about Hayward. Maybe I should have just PM’d Cy, cause he seems like he’s the only one who gets it.


Remove your emotions Laker_Slapper and let’s discuss.
Click to expand...

Emotions have been removed. Only raw thought's on this response JFFR. I apologize in advance if I come off as an a**hole. I only come off that way, because I am one. I can admit it, when other a**holes roam the earth and try to convince everyone that they're non intrusive and that they're a nice guy. I am not that guy and I won't ever pretend to be. No disrespect to you, but I'm going to say it how I see it.

First off, you mentioned that Hayward chose a bigger market and it was his choice. Your absolutely right, and I have never had a problem with a player leaving his current team or choosing a bigger market when he reaches Free Agency. When they reach free agency they have earned the right. Here's my problem with Hayward regarding that. The media had zoomed in on Hayward and asked him if he was going to leave the Jazz, (as early as beginning of 2015). He said NO. Leaving no indication of him leaving. Keep in mind that if he would've been 100% honest with Jazz management we could've traded him and received an asset for him.
After that year (summer of 2016) Rumors started to surface of Gordon having interest in joining Brad Stevens and the Boston Celtics. He was asked multiple times by media and he reiterated that he was a Jazzman through and through. He obviously again told management the same thing, which is why they didn't trade him to recover something from our drafted star talent.
That winter his new child was born and in February his wife posted a picture of their baby wearing a green and white shamrock onesie. Again the Jazz trusted that he wasn't going to leave during free agency because that WAS THE WORDS THAT CAME OUT HIS MOUTH. He obviously lied and left for Boston. He could've been honest with the Jazz which would've allowed us to recover talent for our draft pick that we raised. But instead, we lost him for nothing, because he wasn't a man of his word. My frustration has nothing to do with him leaving, it's that he lied multiple times because he was scared to tell the truth. He feared the pressure, the back lash and everything else that goes with choosing a different team then the one that your currently playing with.
You say that you've been waiting for someone to fill his shoes. You have them. Maybe not based on stats, but you've had players that filled his shoes based on the fact that they had a backbone and carried a sense of integrity. Some shoes will never be filled and that's ok.
Hornacek shoes were never filled, and that's fine, the game moves on. Haywards shoes can be filled by the first person who is a man of their word. Has nothing to do with stats.
The fact is, it's been almost 3 years and he gets defended like he brought us a championship. The fact is, he stabbed us in the back. You want to fill his shoes, you don't have to look far. I'd rather have someone that averages 2.0 PPG, 1.0 ASP, in 10 MPG that wants to be here, than a guy who puts up 15 PPG, 4 RPG and 3 APG that wants to not only leave, but lie about his intentions!!
Quit looking for someone that can fill someone else's shoes and start looking for someone who wants to pave their own path. They don't have to average amazing stats to do that.
And if your looking to CY for intelligent conversation, than I should've made you a coloring book to comprehend.
 
Engorged On Unborn Gore said:
Not the 2017 Hayward.

Overall opposing FG%:
H17: 42.1
B19: 43.1

Opposing 3pt %:
H17: 33.3
B19: 35.8

Opposing 6-feet or less %:
H17: 61.0
B19: 59.6

Maybe you’re thinking of other metrics, though.
Click to expand...

Do you mean 2017 when he played one game and broke his leg in half?? I love that year! But maybe you mean 2016-2017 his last year with the Jazz and posted stats no longer relevant because it was for only one year under a coach and team who he stabbed in the back to leave. Do you mean that year? If so, that was a long time ago! It's almost 2020 Now! Interesting how time flies in your moms basement. Interesting how you took Haywards single greatest year under the same coach and team who he stabbed in the back, and yet rep the player that did the wrongdoing, but post as a fan of the team he left dirty. Yea, represent Hayward by that year. Don't do overall career stats because then you can't beat your chest because you'll quickly realize he sucked.
 
Lakers_Slapper said:
One of us worships a man who is a traitor and has promoted him for 3 years after backstabbing his team in his home town. (You) One of us has measured the Jazz success based on the amount of players that were, (and I quote) "American White", but then named several players that were born overseas. (Again, you). And your calling me dumb?
Yea, your opinion of me or anything else doesn't mean anything to me.
Click to expand...
Are you drunk?
 
Engorged On Unborn Gore said:
Not the 2017 Hayward.

Overall opposing FG%:
H17: 42.1
B19: 43.1

Opposing 3pt %:
H17: 33.3
B19: 35.8

Opposing 6-feet or less %:
H17: 61.0
B19: 59.6

Maybe you’re thinking of other metrics, though.
Click to expand...
Check defensive RTG on NBA.com. Hayward was 103.8 in 2017, Bojan last year 97.5, 2018 - 82.5.... For example Rudy last year 84.9, in 2018 80.4
 
Lakers_Slapper said:
And your calling me dumb?
Click to expand...
picard-facepalm.jpg
 
Lakers_Slapper said:
Emotions have been removed. Only raw thought's on this response JFFR. I apologize in advance if I come off as an a**hole. I only come off that way, because I am one. I can admit it, when other a**holes roam the earth and try to convince everyone that they're non intrusive and that they're a nice guy. I am not that guy and I won't ever pretend to be. No disrespect to you, but I'm going to say it how I see it.

First off, you mentioned that Hayward chose a bigger market and it was his choice. Your absolutely right, and I have never had a problem with a player leaving his current team or choosing a bigger market when he reaches Free Agency. When they reach free agency they have earned the right. Here's my problem with Hayward regarding that. The media had zoomed in on Hayward and asked him if he was going to leave the Jazz, (as early as beginning of 2015). He said NO. Leaving no indication of him leaving. Keep in mind that if he would've been 100% honest with Jazz management we could've traded him and received an asset for him.
After that year (summer of 2016) Rumors started to surface of Gordon having interest in joining Brad Stevens and the Boston Celtics. He was asked multiple times by media and he reiterated that he was a Jazzman through and through. He obviously again told management the same thing, which is why they didn't trade him to recover something from our drafted star talent.
That winter his new child was born and in February his wife posted a picture of their baby wearing a green and white shamrock onesie. Again the Jazz trusted that he wasn't going to leave during free agency because that WAS THE WORDS THAT CAME OUT HIS MOUTH. He obviously lied and left for Boston. He could've been honest with the Jazz which would've allowed us to recover talent for our draft pick that we raised. But instead, we lost him for nothing, because he wasn't a man of his word. My frustration has nothing to do with him leaving, it's that he lied multiple times because he was scared to tell the truth. He feared the pressure, the back lash and everything else that goes with choosing a different team then the one that your currently playing with.
You say that you've been waiting for someone to fill his shoes. You have them. Maybe not based on stats, but you've had players that filled his shoes based on the fact that they had a backbone and carried a sense of integrity. Some shoes will never be filled and that's ok.
Hornacek shoes were never filled, and that's fine, the game moves on. Haywards shoes can be filled by the first person who is a man of their word. Has nothing to do with stats.
The fact is, it's been almost 3 years and he gets defended like he brought us a championship. The fact is, he stabbed us in the back. You want to fill his shoes, you don't have to look far. I'd rather have someone that averages 2.0 PPG, 1.0 ASP, in 10 MPG that wants to be here, than a guy who puts up 15 PPG, 4 RPG and 3 APG that wants to not only leave, but lie about his intentions!!
Quit looking for someone that can fill someone else's shoes and start looking for someone who wants to pave their own path. They don't have to average amazing stats to do that.
And if your looking to CY for intelligent conversation, than I should've made you a coloring book to comprehend.
Click to expand...

Thank you for taking the time to respond. It helps me see where you are coming from.

I have three points:

1. I’m not looking for an “All integrity team”. I’m looking for a team that could compete for a championship. People took Hayward’s minutes, but they didn’t do it very productively. (I do want integrity on the team... but that’s a different conversation. This summer I’ve thought about what it would be like to be a long-time Raptors fan and have a guy come win a championship and leave. Personally, I think that would suck. Imagine loving DeRozan and then watching Kawhi lifting the trophy over his head. I don’t want that. But that’s a different conversation.)

2. I followed the Hayward conversation very closely for the two years before he left. He never committed to Utah. (Please prove me wrong.) He said a lot of nice things but always used a lot of noncommittal language. A ton of it. Things like how he appreciates the way the team is run and how the Jazz do a lot of things right. But he never promised he’d be back.

3. He did stab the Jazz in the back. I can’t tell if it was intentionally, but the way he handled things was unprofessional and rude. A lot of people think it was intentional, I don’t really care.


Sent from my iPhone using JazzFanz mobile app
 
Lakers_Slapper said:
Emotions have been removed. Only raw thought's on this response JFFR. I apologize in advance if I come off as an a**hole. I only come off that way, because I am one. I can admit it, when other a**holes roam the earth and try to convince everyone that they're non intrusive and that they're a nice guy. I am not that guy and I won't ever pretend to be. No disrespect to you, but I'm going to say it how I see it.

First off, you mentioned that Hayward chose a bigger market and it was his choice. Your absolutely right, and I have never had a problem with a player leaving his current team or choosing a bigger market when he reaches Free Agency. When they reach free agency they have earned the right. Here's my problem with Hayward regarding that. The media had zoomed in on Hayward and asked him if he was going to leave the Jazz, (as early as beginning of 2015). He said NO. Leaving no indication of him leaving. Keep in mind that if he would've been 100% honest with Jazz management we could've traded him and received an asset for him.
After that year (summer of 2016) Rumors started to surface of Gordon having interest in joining Brad Stevens and the Boston Celtics. He was asked multiple times by media and he reiterated that he was a Jazzman through and through. He obviously again told management the same thing, which is why they didn't trade him to recover something from our drafted star talent.
That winter his new child was born and in February his wife posted a picture of their baby wearing a green and white shamrock onesie. Again the Jazz trusted that he wasn't going to leave during free agency because that WAS THE WORDS THAT CAME OUT HIS MOUTH. He obviously lied and left for Boston. He could've been honest with the Jazz which would've allowed us to recover talent for our draft pick that we raised. But instead, we lost him for nothing, because he wasn't a man of his word. My frustration has nothing to do with him leaving, it's that he lied multiple times because he was scared to tell the truth. He feared the pressure, the back lash and everything else that goes with choosing a different team then the one that your currently playing with.
You say that you've been waiting for someone to fill his shoes. You have them. Maybe not based on stats, but you've had players that filled his shoes based on the fact that they had a backbone and carried a sense of integrity. Some shoes will never be filled and that's ok.
Hornacek shoes were never filled, and that's fine, the game moves on. Haywards shoes can be filled by the first person who is a man of their word. Has nothing to do with stats.
The fact is, it's been almost 3 years and he gets defended like he brought us a championship. The fact is, he stabbed us in the back. You want to fill his shoes, you don't have to look far. I'd rather have someone that averages 2.0 PPG, 1.0 ASP, in 10 MPG that wants to be here, than a guy who puts up 15 PPG, 4 RPG and 3 APG that wants to not only leave, but lie about his intentions!!
Quit looking for someone that can fill someone else's shoes and start looking for someone who wants to pave their own path. They don't have to average amazing stats to do that.
And if your looking to CY for intelligent conversation, than I should've made you a coloring book to comprehend.
Click to expand...

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