What's new
By:

Trump abandons Kurdish allies to Turkish invasion

The Thriller said:
There was a discussion a while back that I had with @Gameface where I admitted that I’ve changed my views on American international presence. Over the past decade or so we went the rounds over American intervention. At times it became heated over things like the Iraqi war. However, I think both of us have adjusted our views due to new information and experiences. As my research and job right now is oriented towards American history, I’ve come to see American intervention in a less cynical and pessimistic light.

Before you criticize me for flip flopping because of Trump, I’ll freely admit Trump has had an impact on my thinking. I think his presidency has shown the need for America to lead in a positive way. Imagine how much different things would’ve been if he had supported Ukraine in a positive and less self-serving way. So yes, as I’ve stated on this board in the past few years, my views on American intervention have changed since 2015 or hell 2004, when I first began posting on the board. Back then I remember we had debates about gay marriage. I remember hesitancy on my part to legalize that. But that was before I attended college and gained the necessary introspection to change views taught to me in a (mormon) conservative environment.

Trump’s presidency should have caused us all to reflect harder on executive orders, the checks and balances of government, and what it means to be an American. That’s not herd or team mentality. That’s not what’s causing problems in our society today. It’s called learning from experience. If anything, our society lacks introspection.

Criticizing people for not self-reflecting and never changing views is dumb. I’ll never understand it. So yes @framer, new information, job, experience, and a horribly corrupt president can cause our views to change and become more nuanced over a period of 5 years.
Click to expand...

Yeah, except every time you "change" views, it correlates EXACTLY to what MSNBC is telling you. It lines up exactly to what the Democrat party NEEDS you to believe. Don't pretend that adopting the party line is "evolution."
 
framer said:
Yeah, except every time you "change" views, it correlates EXACTLY to what MSNBC is telling you. It lines up exactly to what the Democrat party NEEDS you to believe. Don't pretend that adopting the party line is "evolution."
Click to expand...

I can count on one hand the number of times I’ve watched a show on MSNBC in five years. Out of all the outside sources that influence my life, MSNBC is probably one of the least influential.

I’ve already explained what has caused me to adjust or change my views on some issues, most notably probably has been American intervention. Doing postgrad work, growing older, and reading more (I’ll admit, many of you have provided really influential posts) might have that introspection effect. You should try it sometime. Instead of mocking someone for this, why not try it out?

What’s the “Democrat” party?
 
Last edited:
The Thriller said:
What’s the “Democrat” party?
Click to expand...
What does it mean to be Republican? Or Conservative?

I thought I knew these definitions, but the 2016 election cycle made me aware that I had no clue.

I know Romney thinks being "conservative" means allowing corporations to maximize profits by offshoring manufacturing jobs and importing a cheaper workforce through legal and illegal means. I think I'm conservative, but I'm not that kind of conservative.

Lindsey Graham thinks being "conservative" means being okay with armed intervention in any country, for any reason. After all, how can anyone argue against us standing up for 'Truth, Justice, and the American Way'? (I wonder where these "conservatives" were when Pol Pot was killing 2 million Cambodians, and we did nothing?) Well, I no longer belong to that conservative group either.

So maybe I'm no longer a Conservative or a Republican. And the 2020 Democratic candidates for president are in the process of redefining what it means to be a Democrat; I guess they will get back to us when they've reached a consensus.
 
The Thriller said:
I can count on one hand the number of times I’ve watched a show on MSNBC in five years. Out of all the outside sources that influence my life, MSNBC is probably one of the least influential.

I’ve already explained what has caused me to adjust or change my views on some issues, most notably probably has been American intervention. Doing postgrad work, growing older, and reading more (I’ll admit, many of you have provided really influential posts) might have that introspection effect. You should try it sometime. Instead of mocking someone for this, why not try it out?

What’s the “Democrat” party?
Click to expand...

If your views on intervention have changed, where are the other spots that we should commit troops and treasure in the Middle East? Surely the Northern Part of Syria cannot be the only place, no?

"Democrat" is me being snarky about the 2016 Democratic Primary. I joked with the people I did a panel for (mostly Democrats) that the party kinda lost rights to the term Democratic after the super delegate fiasco. You are correct, I should retire it.

But seriously, my big thing is that I don't think many, if any of us, on this board have a clear understanding of what exactly is the deal in Northern Syria. I don't really think that the Iraqi Kurds are completely transferable to the Syrian Kurds and that maybe Turkey doesn't have a justifiable beef with members of that community. Is Turkey threatening the Kurds in Iraq? Although the current leadership of Turkey sucks, the issues between these groups spread back way before his rule. I don't know what is real, I can't trust politicians or journalism to get me the straight story without spinning it or serving up someone else's spin because they are ignorant of the situation.

I do have family that has served there and they tell me that the coverage and things we talk about and focus on are laughable. I'm kind of tired seeing them put in a situation where the most likely way they die is someone that they are fighting "for" kills them behind the wall that they are supposed to be defending together.

You talk about how it was better when Saddam could suppress the religious crazies and how that was better than what we have today and yet scream about the killing of Kashoggi like it was the worst evil ever perpetrated on Mankind. It was the same thing. Saudi Arabia was suppressing the Muslim Brotherhood with the hit, only it just killed one dude rather than gassing 100,000. Both are real bad, but our media class treats only Kashoggi as meaningful because he had a byline. Saddam and Assad gassing folk is pretty bad too. If Saddam's atrocities were beneficial for keeping the peace, why the different eye of judgement for Turkey, or Saudi Arabia.

Overall I don't think this is a game we are equipped to play. There is nothing about how things run out there that we can even begin to understand with our cultural background. The best thing we could do is achieve energy independence and encourage and reward obvious cultural reforms, without making too many commitments or promises. This is the play ALL of our NATO allies are making, minus the energy independent part. Not one of them is saying ANYTHING about the Kurds or lifting a finger to help. Why do you think that is? Hell Turkey IS a NATo ally, supposedly.

Not to mention the real contest isn't based in an 80's Cold War *** for tat with Russia in the Middle East, it's in Asia, and based on what we have seen in the past few days, China's influence is much more dangerous.
 
Last edited:
framer said:
But seriously, my big thing is that I don't think many, if any of us, on this board have a clear understanding of what exactly is the deal in Northern Syria.
Click to expand...

Hey, thanks for this post, framer. I have to admit, my knee-jerk reaction to Trump pulling out of Syria was to take at face value the idea that we are simply abandoning our allies, and to be upset by it. Truth be told, I was basing that 100% on my distaste for Trump-- I know close to nothing about the culture, geopolitics, etc. contributing to the situation. I appreciate what you've said here, and that you mostly left any political antagonism out of it.
 
framer said:
Yeah, except every time you "change" views, it correlates EXACTLY to what MSNBC is telling you. It lines up exactly to what the Democrat party NEEDS you to believe. Don't pretend that adopting the party line is "evolution."
Click to expand...
You write like you don’t have any Democratic friends or family that you can discuss politics over the dinner table. The reality is Democrats are all over the place on both foreign and domestic policy. Thriller seems to be more of a DNC Democrat than most of the more liberal Dems I know but even within that cadre there’s a good deal of diversity of opinion. Furthermore, the DNC no longer holds sway over the party the way it did even four years ago. In short, there is no party line to adopt.
 
JazzyFresh said:
Democratic Warmongers

Enough ****ing wars. We are not going to fix it.
Click to expand...
Strange post
The US abandoning our allies actually has caused a war.
If you are anti war (like it sounds like you are claiming to be) then you should be anti abandoning our allies in this instance.

This isn't about Democrats vs Republicans (sorry to disappoint you) in this instance.

The United States (not the Dems or the Repubs) decided to abandon our allies to leave them for the slaughter. That slaughter has begun. Apparently that makes you happy and proud.


Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using JazzFanz mobile app
 
Ellipse said:
What does it mean to be Republican? Or Conservative?

I thought I knew these definitions, but the 2016 election cycle made me aware that I had no clue.

I know Romney thinks being "conservative" means allowing corporations to maximize profits by offshoring manufacturing jobs and importing a cheaper workforce through legal and illegal means. I think I'm conservative, but I'm not that kind of conservative.

Lindsey Graham thinks being "conservative" means being okay with armed intervention in any country, for any reason. After all, how can anyone argue against us standing up for 'Truth, Justice, and the American Way'? (I wonder where these "conservatives" were when Pol Pot was killing 2 million Cambodians, and we did nothing?) Well, I no longer belong to that conservative group either.

So maybe I'm no longer a Conservative or a Republican. And the 2020 Democratic candidates for president are in the process of redefining what it means to be a Democrat; I guess they will get back to us when they've reached a consensus.
Click to expand...
Yeah, sounds like you've become a Trumpian
 
Gameface said:
You're aligned with Trump again, what a coincidence.
Click to expand...
I'm tired of meddling in **** we can't fix. I ****ing hate war and I always have no matter the president. At one point my thinking was very liberal and Democratic. Sadly people like you hate Trump so much your willing to sacrifice yourself and your ideals just to resist. What a sad state. Your more Republican than Trump.
 
fishonjazz said:
Strange post
The US abandoning our allies actually has caused a war.
If you are anti war (like it sounds like you are claiming to be) then you should be anti abandoning our allies in this instance.

This isn't about Democrats vs Republicans (sorry to disappoint you) in this instance.

The United States (not the Dems or the Repubs) decided to abandon our allies to leave them for the slaughter. That slaughter has begun. Apparently that makes you happy and proud.


Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using JazzFanz mobile app
Click to expand...
Do people seriously believe that leaving 50 US troops in the contested region would have stopped Turkey from invading? Has anyone once entertained the idea that Erdogen made his intention to invade Syria very clear to Trump, US presence or not?

And now we hear reports of Turkey jets bombing the Kurds and our generals are upset because Trump ordered them not to intervene.

Think of that for a moment -- our generals are upset because they are not allowed to shoot down jets belonging to a NATO ally.

Clearly, we have done a poor job of choosing allies.
 
JazzyFresh said:
I'm tired of meddling in **** we can't fix. I ****ing hate war and I always have no matter the president. At one point my thinking was very liberal and Democratic. Sadly people like you hate Trump so much your willing to sacrifice yourself and your ideals just to resist. What a sad state. Your more Republican than Trump.
Click to expand...
No I'm not.
 
Ellipse said:
Do people seriously believe that leaving 50 US troops in the contested region would have stopped Turkey from invading? Has anyone once entertained the idea that Erdogen made his intention to invade Syria very clear to Trump, US presence or not?

And now we hear reports of Turkey jets bombing the Kurds and our generals are upset because Trump ordered them not to intervene.

Think of that for a moment -- our generals are upset because they are not allowed to shoot down jets belonging to a NATO ally.

Clearly, we have done a poor job of choosing allies.
Click to expand...
Link on the 50 troops?

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using JazzFanz mobile app
 
Ellipse said:
Do people seriously believe that leaving 50 US troops in the contested region would have stopped Turkey from invading?
Click to expand...

Seems to have worked so far, the numbers are closer to 150 fwiw.

Ellipse said:
anyone once entertained the idea that Erdogen made his intention to invade Syria very clear to Trump, US presence or not?
Click to expand...

That sounds rather unlikely tbh, and is pure conjecture.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page
Back
Top