What's new
By:

The official "let's impeach Trump" thread

silesian said:
Today we’ve all learned one of FreshJazzy’s trigger words.
Click to expand...
I wouldn’t like to be called a traitor and I don’t like to see it thrown about so easily. Whether by Trump or his critics. Way too loaded a word to be useful for any productive discussion.

The most general and benign dictionary definition of a traitor is “one who betrays or is false to an obligation or duty.” This could apply to any number of politicians and their supporters but it is not the meaning that comes to mind for most people.

The more commonly understood definition is one who betrays their country by committing treason. And treason, for a U.S. citizen, means to levy war against your country or give aid and comfort to the enemy. It can be punishable by death.

Calling anyone a traitor without qualification is a bad faith way to start an argument.
 
Jonah said:
I wouldn’t like to be called a traitor and I don’t like to see it thrown about so easily. Whether by Trump or his critics. Way too loaded a word to be useful for any productive discussion.

The most general and benign dictionary definition of a traitor is “one who betrays or is false to an obligation or duty.” This could apply to any number of politicians and their supporters but it is not the meaning that comes to mind for most people.

The more commonly understood definition is one who betrays their country by committing treason. And treason, for a U.S. citizen, means to levy war against your country or give aid and comfort to the enemy. It can be punishable by death.

Calling anyone a traitor without qualification is a bad faith way to start an argument.
Click to expand...
It's pretty simple actually.
 
Jonah said:
I wouldn’t like to be called a traitor and I don’t like to see it thrown about so easily. Whether by Trump or his critics. Way too loaded a word to be useful for any productive discussion.

The most general and benign dictionary definition of a traitor is “one who betrays or is false to an obligation or duty.” This could apply to any number of politicians and their supporters but it is not the meaning that comes to mind for most peopl
The more commonly understood definition is one who betrays their country by committing reason. And treason, for a U.S. citizen, means to levy war against your country or give aid and comfort to the enemy. It can be punishable by death.

Calling anyone a traitor without qualification is a bad faith way to start an argument.
Click to expand...

Really good points. So it is okay to say that Trump is a traitor and some of his enablers and followers are traitors, but not ALL of his followers and supporters are traitors. So I stand corrected and retract my previous categorical statement, and I can live instead with this qualification.

Just because you are supporting a traitor does not necessarily mean that you are a traitor. Along those lines, we not really sure that Trump is a racist, but we ARE sure that the racists say that Trump is a racist.

Some just vote for whoever will put the right judges on the supreme court, for example, and they look the other way at his incompetence and bigotry. Others vote to lower taxes and with more money in their pockets they look the other way at his incessant lying.


PS: I need to mention FreshJazzy because he believes that I'm obsessed with him and I don't want to disappoint. He is quite easily bruised and needs persistent attention.
 
Jonah said:
I wouldn’t like to be called a traitor and I don’t like to see it thrown about so easily. Whether by Trump or his critics. Way too loaded a word to be useful for any productive discussion.

The most general and benign dictionary definition of a traitor is “one who betrays or is false to an obligation or duty.” This could apply to any number of politicians and their supporters but it is not the meaning that comes to mind for most people.

The more commonly understood definition is one who betrays their country by committing treason. And treason, for a U.S. citizen, means to levy war against your country or give aid and comfort to the enemy. It can be punishable by death.

Calling anyone a traitor without qualification is a bad faith way to start an argument.
Click to expand...

I agree that treason is generally defined exactly as you describe it. That said, those who started telling me in 2016 that Russia attacking our elections was either no big deal, or was deserved, because our own CIA had interfered in the internal affairs of other nations, I regard as American citizens unwilling to stand up and defend their own country when it is attacked. Maybe some think it has to be a Pearl Harbour to be a "real" attack on our country. In the cyber age, I don't think that way. We were attacked by Russia, by the orders of Putin. Whatever name one wants to call Americans who think we had that attack by Russia coming to us, or who think "so what?", at the least, from my point of view, the term is not "a patriot".
 
JazzyFresh said:
No, I'm anti alt-left and alt-right not pro Trump. I've never said a kind word about Trump but I do feel the Democratic party has become radicalized in extremism. Liberalism is dead in the water sadly and replaced with "do as I say or you're a traitor". It's truthfully sad.
Click to expand...

Interesting how you claim to be against the alt-right and then repeat their talking points.
 
silesian said:
Really good points. So it is okay to say that Trump is a traitor and some of his enablers and followers are traitors, but not ALL of his followers and supporters are traitors. So I stand corrected and retract my previous categorical statement, and I can live instead with this qualification.

Just because you are supporting a traitor does not necessarily mean that you are a traitor. Along those lines, we not really sure that Trump is a racist, but we ARE sure that the racists say that Trump is a racist.

Some just vote for whoever will put the right judges on the supreme court, for example, and they look the other way at his incompetence and bigotry. Others vote to lower taxes and with more money in their pockets they look the other way at his incessant lying.


PS: I need to mention FreshJazzy because he believes that I'm obsessed with him and I don't want to disappoint. He is quite easily bruised and needs persistent attention.
Click to expand...
When you argue in good faith, whenever you deviate from common usage, you provide qualification, just a common and necessary courtesy so people can argue from common ground. You still haven’t qualified what you mean by traitor, if you actually believe not just Trump but his followers are committing treason. Trump uses the word traitor as a cheap pejorative in order to shut down discussion over impeachment. Propaganda for his people. If that’s the road you want to follow that’s your choice.
 
Red said:
I agree that treason is generally defined exactly as you describe it. That said, those who started telling me in 2016 that Russia attacking our elections was either no big deal, or was deserved, because our own CIA had interfered in the internal affairs of other nations, I regard as American citizens unwilling to stand up and defend their own country when it is attacked. Maybe some think it has to be a Pearl Harbour to be a "real" attack on our country. In the cyber age, I don't think that way. We were attacked by Russia, by the orders of Putin. Whatever name one wants to call Americans who think we had that attack by Russia coming to us, or who think "so what?", at the least, from my point of view, the term is not "a patriot".
Click to expand...
No problem agreeing with everything you said here, Red. Wrapping yourself in the flag and mindlessly following the president is not in any way patriotic. Furthermore, I believe Trump and his followers should be confronted accurately and as directly as possible. I just think actual treason for his supporters is a bridge too far and counterproductive.
 
Jonah said:
I believe Trump and his followers should be confronted accurately and as directly as possible. I just think actual treason for his supporters is a bridge too far and counterproductive.
Click to expand...
Like what? What do you suggest I do to this guy wearing a MAGA hat sitting across Taco Time(lunch)? He's just minding his own business enjoying himself hurting no one.
 
Jonah said:
When you argue in good faith, whenever you deviate from common usage, you provide qualification, just a common and necessary courtesy so people can argue from common ground. You still haven’t qualified what you mean by traitor, if you actually believe not just Trump but his followers are committing treason. Trump uses the word traitor as a cheap pejorative in order to shut down discussion over impeachment. Propaganda for his people. If that’s the road you want to follow that’s your choice.
Click to expand...

your premise that all traitors are committing treason is incorrect and certainly not common usage.

you claim that I deviated from “common usage” but provided no evidence to back up your claim. Please explain specifically what you mean.

And finally, you are arguing that because trump calls people traitors for a certain reason, that everyone who does so must be for the same reason. This is a logical fallacy/ false generalization.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page
Back
Top