The Honesty of Transgender Identity

[Archie Moses]

The point is indeed quite obvious. It's based on cluelessness, a lack of empathy, and a denial of reality, but it is very clear.

I think it's just what people want to accept. Both of them would be clear examples of people who mentally feel their body does not align with their body.

To each their own. Live and let live. One of the best things that happened to me was understanding that everyone is different and to support them as long as it doesn't involve breaking the law. As the cliche goes, life is incredibly short. Live it your way. Find your happiness.

Too many people try set norms on people. It's unhealthy and ****s people up. Gameface sharing personal things that are very easy for some to not understand and to criticize is brave. I can see why he's so emotionally involved in the topic.

 

[Archie Moses]

Yes I get the point of the joke. It is pretty similar to the "joke" that sprang up in regard to gay marriage, the "What are we gonna do next, let people marry their dog?" one. It is obviously comparing transgender identity to an absurdity, implying that it is just some arbitrary decision and specifically that it is a decision to be something that you are not.

I suppose you could claim that in addition to the things I've mentioned, it is making a comparison to something that we would generally find offensive, a caucasian person identifying as an Asian person. Making the point that a person with privilege assumes the identity of a group that has endured oppression. Now expecting all of the empathy while having suffered none of the consequences.

To me, the people who said, what's next, letting people marry their dog is far more ignorant and offensive.


Correct me if I'm wrong but gender, race and ethnicity are all social constructs. Why is it more absurd if someone feels they're a different race than someone who feels they were born with the wrong genitals?

 

[Archie Moses]

I suppose you could claim that in addition to the things I've mentioned, it is making a comparison to something that we would generally find offensive, a caucasian person identifying as an Asian person. Making the point that a person with privilege assumes the identity of a group that has endured oppression. Now expecting all of the empathy while having suffered none of the consequences.

There are women who feel the same way about transgender people born male. Some say it's offensive because they don't know what it's like being a female and the troubles females have in society. (Although, to me, transgender people have had it far worse than women - generally speaking.)

 

[One Brow]

Mentally, gender is a social construct. Biologically it is not.

Hence, the way people distinguish gender and birth sex.

So imo, society, friends, parents, personal experience, etc is what is influencing people to want a sex change. Its not something you come up with on your own because you are getting signals from inside that you are a different sex.

Why can't it be both?

Also, leave kids under 18 alone. Thats the thing that bugs me. Parents transitioning their youngs kids is abhorrent and should be illegal.

What if 'leaving the kid alone' means that the kid transitions? What's your position then?

 

[One Brow]

To me, the people who said, what's next, letting people marry their dog is far more ignorant and offensive.

I agree. However, I think the goal should be 'not ignorant and offensive', as opposed to 'less ignorant and offensive'.

Correct me if I'm wrong but gender, race and ethnicity are all social constructs. Why is it more absurd if someone feels they're a different race than someone who feels they were born with the wrong genitals?

The offered example was 'can I identify as Chinese'. Chinese isn't a race, it's a common cultural distillation of many individual cultures that signifies a great deal about the types of stories you were told, the expectation of the society you were raised in, etc. Any person raised in China by Chinese parents would be Chinese, regardless of skin color.

What would it even men to feel like you were a different race? That you were treated as a member of that race?

 

[One Brow]

There are women who feel the same way about transgender people born male. Some say it's offensive because they don't know what it's like being a female and the troubles females have in society. (Although, to me, transgender people have had it far worse than women - generally speaking.)

So. we agree that they suffer the consequences.

 

[Archie Moses]

I agree. However, I think the goal should be 'not ignorant and offensive', as opposed to 'less ignorant and offensive'.

Did what I write state that the goal should be anything less?

The offered example was 'can I identify as Chinese'. Chinese isn't a race, it's a common cultural distillation of many individual cultures that signifies a great deal about the types of stories you were told, the expectation of the society you were raised in, etc. Any person raised in China by Chinese parents would be Chinese, regardless of skin color.

What would it even men to feel like you were a different race? That you were treated as a member of that race?

Sure. On the example using "Chinese" but you're being shortsighted if you're just taking that one example as a literal example and failing to understand what people mean. Unless, of course, you're not familiar with people saying things like this. Substitute GF's exmaple of Chinese and use the term Asain, black, "insert any other cultural construct.*

A good example would be the white professor that identified as being black.

 

[Hotdog]

Hence, the way people distinguish gender and birth sex.



Why can't it be both?



What if 'leaving the kid alone' means that the kid transitions? What's your position then?

Well, it can't be both because your knowledge of the opposite sex is external. Its a social construct. You only want to change sex because of what you are observing on the outside. If you never saw or heard of the opposite sex you would not even be thinking about it.

What I mean by leave the kids alone is not allowing or suggesting hormone therapy on kids. If the kid wants to dress and act like the opposite sex then fine, but starting hormone therapy on kids is BS, even if they ask for it. You dont think so?

 

[One Brow]

A good example would be the white professor that identified as being black.

By any account, she's (I presume you mean Dolezal) a troubled woman, who among other things avoided a conviction for fraud by entering a special program. She's not a good example.

 

[One Brow]

Well, it can't be both because your knowledge of the opposite sex is external. Its a social construct. You only want to change sex because of what you are observing on the outside. If you never saw or heard of the opposite sex you would not even be thinking about it.

If there were one birth sex, and multiple genders, people would still want to change genders.

What I mean by leave the kids alone is not allowing or suggesting hormone therapy on kids. If the kid wants to dress and act like the opposite sex then fine, but starting hormone therapy on kids is BS, even if they ask for it. You dont think so?

Hormone therapy on prepubescent children is irresponsible. As for when puberty comes, I don't feel that I am in a better position to decide than the children's doctor.

 

[Archie Moses]

By any account, she's (I presume you mean Dolezal) a troubled woman, who among other things avoided a conviction for fraud by entering a special program. She's not a good example.

So because she has trouble with other things that voids the example of her race being fluid?

I don't understand your logic.

 

[One Brow]

So because she has trouble with other things that voids the example of her race being fluid?

I don't understand your logic.

Yes, when people are near-convicted of fraud, it means you need to take their claims with a larger degree of skepticism. Do you disagree?

 

[Archie Moses]

Yes, when people are near-convicted of fraud, it means you need to take their claims with a larger degree of skepticism. Do you disagree?

So, if a transgender person is convicted of fraud at some point in their life, then they're not transgender?

Yeah, man. I disagree with your logic.

 

[Gameface]

There are women who feel the same way about transgender people born male. Some say it's offensive because they don't know what it's like being a female and the troubles females have in society. (Although, to me, transgender people have had it far worse than women - generally speaking.)

Yeah, I'm familiar with that. It's a form of feminism called "gender critical."

 

[Gameface]

To me, the people who said, what's next, letting people marry their dog is far more ignorant and offensive.


Correct me if I'm wrong but gender, race and ethnicity are all social constructs. Why is it more absurd if someone feels they're a different race than someone who feels they were born with the wrong genitals?

Yes, race and gender are social constructs. But what, other than a spectrum of skin tones, defines one "race" vs another? If I want to be Chinese what would that mean? I can live culturally similar, very similar if not exactly the same, as any Chinese person. And while there are many people with Chinese heritage and/or people who came to the U.S. from China, they can live and act in many different ways, they can become completely "Americanized." Those who are a few generations deep in the U.S. I'm sure share little cultural identity with mainland Chinese people.

So if I say I'm Chinese as a race, what happens next? Being that race doesn't tie me to any particular cultural behaviours because people who are from China are not bound to Chinese culture.

 

[Archie Moses]

Yes, race and gender are social constructs. But what, other than a spectrum of skin tones, defines one "race" vs another? If I want to be Chinese what would that mean? I can live culturally similar, very similar if not exactly the same, as any Chinese person. And while there are many people with Chinese heritage and/or people who came to the U.S. from China, they can live and act in many different ways, they can become completely "Americanized." Those who are a few generations deep in the U.S. I'm sure share little cultural identity with mainland Chinese people.

So if I say I'm Chinese as a race, what happens next? Being that race doesn't tie me to any particular cultural behaviours because people who are from China are not bound to Chinese culture.

Yeah, I further clarified a response in my response to OB.

 

[AlaskanAssassin]

Yeah, I'm familiar with that. It's a form of feminism called "gender critical."

I can understand why some feminists are "gender critical" when a biological man in his sixties transitions into a woman and immediately wins the "Woman of the Year Award".

 

[Gameface]

I can understand why some feminists are "gender critical" when a biological man in his sixties transitions into a woman and immediately wins the "Woman of the Year Award".

The "woman of the year award" is what you see as the backbone of gender critical feminists, or TERFs (trans-exclusionary radical feminists) views on tans women?

 

[Hekate]

I can understand why some feminists are "gender critical" when a biological man in his sixties transitions into a woman and immediately wins the "Woman of the Year Award".

Feels more like some women don't like the idea of feminism evolving and changing focus. It's awfully similar to reaction men had to the 1st and 2nd wave of feminism.

 

[AlaskanAssassin]

The "woman of the year award" is what you see as the backbone of gender critical feminists, or TERFs (trans-exclusionary radical feminists) views on tans women?

I don't understand the question and I have never heard the term TERF.

I would imagine that if you polled women who consider themselves feminists, the majority would prefer that Feminism focus on advocating women's rights and the equality of sexes.