mellow
Well-Known Member
So Conley can't have a simplistic role similar to Clarkson?
Who is making it harder for him?
Fwiw, the team is doing pretty well right now so maybe Conley has found his place?
The Conley Conundrum
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So Conley can't have a simplistic role similar to Clarkson?
Who is making it harder for him?
Fwiw, the team is doing pretty well right now so maybe Conley has found his place?
jom2003
Well-Known Member
We are almost half way into the season so how many samples do you need? There is no sign of Conley coming back within the next 2 weeks so thats probably all the data we can work with at midpoint of the season.
I at least have a sample to support my claim, do you have anything besides wishful thinking?
Not really. He’s not coming off the bench and expected to put a garbage scoring unit on his back.
jom2003
Well-Known Member
Excuse me but where do you get this? According to NBA.com we are 117 offensive rating and 97 defensive rating with Ingles instead of Conley in the lineup. We are only 113 offensive rating and 98 on defense with Conley. That is a 5 point margin. Do you consider that as "similar"? Because I don't.
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latin jazz
Well-Known Member
Sure, Conley benefits from having the ball in his hands but he has also been pretty good off the ball the last few years. Last year he shoot 40% on catch and shoot 3s and 43.3% on wide open 3s. Hopefully he finds his groove because we will need more playmaking/scoring during the playoffs.
Remember how easy it was for Houston to shut down Joe last year, which left Donovan alone while Rubio was laying bricks. That didn't go well. And Clarckson and Mudiay are not playmakers/excellent shooters. Furthermore, Mudiay might not even crack the rotation during the playoffs.
Douchebag K
Well-Known Member
Conley is our starting PG who once he gets back and finds his groove will make us even better and deeper
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latin jazz
Well-Known Member
Whether or not that's considered similar, I think Hekate's point is somewhat valid (including the strength of schedule).
The starting unit, even with Conley shooting poorly, has played really well since the beginning. The problem has always been the bench.
Joe recent play indicates he needs Rudy/better players around him to be effective. Royce will probably go to the bench but subbed in for Conley very early in the game.
jom2003
Well-Known Member
Conley is a negative on both ends(-.0.7 obpm and -1dbpm) but a problem that we could deal with. Bench is not. I get it.
But there shouldn't be any denial that Conley is a problem.
latin jazz
Well-Known Member
You are assuming DM+Ingles as main playmakers are enough. The last two playoffs have shown that it's not.
Conley shooting this badly? Yeah, it's a problem. But it's more likely he shoots better and becomes part of the solution. It's not only 'wishful thinking' but quite rational if we look at his play during the last several years.
Furthermore, it's pretty unlikely we trade him this offseason so we better hope he improves.
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Unfortunately, Conley's shooting (jump shooting) isn't the only problem. We know that jump shooting can be very make or miss, but there are other aspects of the game that aren't as variable that Conley also struggled at. He doesn't get to the rim, can't finish at the rim when he gets, can't make floaters, doesn't get to the line as much, can't make good decisions with the ball, can't defend anyone....A lot of these things have very little to do with new situation ect. This is just an aged PG playing worse. Even if he gets his entire offense back, he's going to have a huge target on him in the playoffs on defense. He's hopeless in switching situations.
I don't believe he will continue to be this bad, but it's very unlikely that he will be the PG the Jazz thought they traded for. He's played like a replacement level player. He has a mountain to climb just to get back to being an average player. I find it very difficult to see him being worthy of a closing spot over Ingles or O'Neale in a closing lineup. He would have to provide so much more offense that being a defensive liability is worth it...don't see it happening.
Like I said before, my hope for him is that he can become a contributing rotation player. I expect his play to improve, but that's not saying much when he's played at replacement level.
I don't believe he will continue to be this bad, but it's very unlikely that he will be the PG the Jazz thought they traded for. He's played like a replacement level player. He has a mountain to climb just to get back to being an average player. I find it very difficult to see him being worthy of a closing spot over Ingles or O'Neale in a closing lineup. He would have to provide so much more offense that being a defensive liability is worth it...don't see it happening.
Like I said before, my hope for him is that he can become a contributing rotation player. I expect his play to improve, but that's not saying much when he's played at replacement level.
Engorged On Unborn Gore
Well-Known Member
It depends on where it is lodged.
I think there are extraordinary scenarios that require extraction.
jom2003
Well-Known Member
So you sayin because ingles+DM is not good against a championship contending team in Hou, by bringing in Conley, who's shown even worse chemistry/performances so far than Ingles+DM, will somehow make us more relevant in this title race?
And like I said previously and what the other poster just mentioned above, shooting is not Conley’s only problem. You can still shoot poorly while logging positive values on either end of the floor. But Conley has been a negative on both ends. So 1, I doubt he can shoot better without being the primary ball handler. 2, even if he does, it does not negate the fact that we are not better with him playing, with stats pointing towards the opposite.
Jazzmix
Well-Known Member
Not really. Conley is running point in the new and complexed system. Clarckson was probably just told: "Do your thing and score". He does the same what he has been doing in Cleveland.
I would say no. It's like saying a running back ablity to transition on a new team is equally to quarter back.
NBA. It's quite similar when you factor in the small sample size.
jom2003
Well-Known Member
People here really have failed to realized just how bad Conley has been for the Jazz because our other starters have been played amazingly well enough to hide him on both ends
latin jazz
Well-Known Member
Mmm, nope, that's not what I'm saying so please stop paraphrasing.
My point is that Ingles will be pretty easy to shut down (by Hou or other playoff team) and therefore we need one more playmaker besides DM. And we better hope Conley plays better (and it's quite rational to think so).
And I disagree with some of your points: I) I think he can be effective off the ball (he is shooting 40% on catch and shoot 3 this season but his floater is off, previous seasons also show he can be pretty effective); ii) we are way better with him if he improves. He brings intangibles/playmaking/shotmaking which will be useful during the playoffs. Also, very small sample size to make hard conclusions. As you may be aware, this FO prefers to err on the side of caution and get as much data as possible to make a move, so a Conley trade is unlikely (plus he is their guy).
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And what people don't realize is that this year, not only is DM much better at making reads and running the offense, but now we have a legit second option who can create his own offense in Boyan and shoots lights out. DM is better in all respects than Conley, which is why he should be the primary PG. Let Mike spend more time with the bench unit.