where did koc screwed i wonder? i think he makes very accurate choices most of the time
August 20:Big Match Turkey&Germany-Enes Kanter&Dirk Nowitzki match is starting now:) live Link here
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where did koc screwed i wonder? i think he makes very accurate choices most of the time
Bringing racism into the discussion is an automatic forfeit.
MVP
Well-Known Member
Racism???? Are you kidding me? It is differences in biological age not racism my friend.
Southern Europeans and Northern Europeans are not biologically different enough to to have truly distinct aging cycles.
I believe your not a troll, and you off-hand remark about Lopez/Parker means I'll give you the benefit fo the doubt that you're not a short-term Jazz fan. Your comment is racist, nonetheless.
MVP
Well-Known Member
well, if you would compare Turkey or Greece U16 team vs Latvia, Lithuania, Finland or Sweden U16 teams you would see quite a huge difference in biological age. Again we can disagree on the subject, but my point is lets evaluate players when they reach at least 20-21 years of age as exceptional physical specimen at 16-17 years like Kanter or Koufos dominating same age but lighter and not as mature kids is not very fair in their evaluation.
MVP
Well-Known Member
ok, I will give you his biggest blunders: Lopez over Parker/Arenas, Borchardt over Boozer, Humphries over Big Al, Snyder over Josh Smith, Pavlovic over Josh Howard, some could argue that Williams over Paul was mistake as well but from what I know it was Sloan who wanted Williams badly, KOC wanted to draft Paul. I will skip Brewer over Rondo as at that time Jazz already had Williams and did not need another PG.
At the end of the day see how many first round picks by O'Connor are still on the Jazz - I see only Hayward on his rookie contract.( I do not count Kanter and Burks as they are not even signed ). O'Connor was exceptionaly good or lucky to draft in second round but first round was failure most of the times and the fact that none of them are still with us tell a lot.
Having had the advantage of growing up in a country full of Europeans of a variety of ancetries, I can say very clearly that I saw no difference in the bilogical aging of those from Northern Europe versus those from Southern Europe. They all looked alike to me.
However, I know the futility of convincing a racist how little their ideas are based in reality. You're more likely to have productive conversation on science with (poster name withheld for reasons of kindness).
At the time they were drafted, Lopez was better. Even after the injury, they were on a par.
How would drafting Boozer have made him a better player for us?
I agree those were mistakes.
Many have tried, but the arguments were unconvincing, and there was reason to think Paul did not want to play in a system like Utah's.
I notice you left off second round picks, we have a couple of those. Also, Maynor and Brewer were traded for financial reasons, but were good draft picks.
Most outside sources put Utah in the top ten in their drafting history.
Yes, but not necessarily about O'Connor's ability.
MVP
Well-Known Member
Lopez was never better then Parker ( some may argue he was faster before injury) or Arenas. I loved the guy while he was on Jazz but come on, the only reason Jazz drafted him was that they wanted somebody who stays overseas for one year and did not want to have Parker or Arenas that year on their roster. It was bad decison especially after having Arenas for workouts in Utah, not surprisingly Gilbert used to light up Jazz when he was still with GSW, it was like extra motivation for him.
You do realize that every team in the NBA passed on Arenas in the first round. And over half of them had him in in for a work out. So what does that say about all the other GM's? There were reasons that Arenas fell to the second round. Attitude and personal issues (that we have seen now that he is in the league) and the fact that no one was convince he could play a lick of PG. (as he was a 2 guard in collage for the most part). As for your other ones the only one's I well agree with are the Hump over Jefferson and Smith picks. One really bad year in the Draft has happend to pretty much every GM.
MVP
Well-Known Member
Arenas was selected only 6 picks later then Lopez and in between ( I forgot about it ) was Gerald Wallace and Samuel Dalembert as well. So three ALL-stars were selected after Lopez and you saying it was not a bad pick. Second you saying that drafting Borchardt and not Boozer, but then signing Boozer for 66mil two years later was smart? We could have had Boozer for 4 years for rookie salary and had enough money to sign quality center or SG. This is even bigger mistake then Lopez IMHO.
right now u can say that parker is a better player but come on, who knew he was going to be so good? he was just a decent european guard at that time in the draft. Even here many people were giving derrick williams more credit over kanter just because he is american and kanter international, so it is not easy to break taboos and pick a more unknown guy over a better known.
KOC made perfect choices in the last couple of years, millsap, deron williams, hayward and kanter, even we can include burks are some of them. Also koufos was a very good draft pick for me, he just couldnt improve himself enough to stay on the team, but i still believe he is a good player. Humpries is a very good player as well.Only thing i can argue is Almond, and if we go back to past years, which i dont have that much knowledge , maybe we can say kirk snyder.
You are talking like it was obvious the other guy was better at that time but koc just screwed our pick with picking an unknown or totally garbage player but your examples arent even close. You show a adequate player that we picked and then compare to another player who wasnt that popular that time but later improved himself well and turned out to be a better player.
And if we look at the last 2 years, we picked the 2 best players available. Hayward is one of the best players of his draft and Kanter will probably be the best. So i dont believe KOC deserves a bad grade from his drafting history.
You basically argue that Why KOC wasnt a fortuneteller or magician so he couldnt see the future and made those picks instead of if he could make the best possible choice at that moment.
MVP
Well-Known Member
I understand your enthusiasm and it is fine to be optimistic about our team players but lets be objective - that yet has to be seen. I am not sold yet on Hayward as he had just a few good games when nothing mattered at the end of the season... There are numerous rookies who had much better season then him last year. To call him one of the best is a huge stretch at this point. Same goes for Kanter, he has not shown anything yet. When I read articles after draft from numerous NBA scouts, writers, specialists and so on, I do not see many of them calling Kanter the best ( except Kentucky coach who is obviously biased). If you read Draftexpress - which is one of the best NBA talent evaluation website due to their extensive scouting all over the world you would know whom they consider the best.
margodydek
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Being a Jazz fan must be depressing for you.
D
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If he really is one
i dont generally create ideas after reading those websites but seeing the players play. I think derrick williams will be a failure, valanciunas isnt that good as you claim and other than that i dont see too many top level players. Enes is best player along with irving in my opinion. but we will see yet, its just a prediction regarding their potential.
GVC
Well-Known Member
Jonathon Givony spends a lot of time scouting in Europe, and on more than one occasion has been accused of being too euro-centric in his evaluations (along wit being accused of trying to ingratiate himself to European teams to in an attempt to land legit scouting/management jobs over there). He likes JV and doesn't like Kanter, this much is clear. He's also seen a lot more of JV, and that's the case for everyone. Enes is the biggest unknown from this draft. He was the best player at his age group in Europe for a few years, and then stopped playing meaningful games. JV kept playing, and playing against men recently, and thrived (if only in limited minutes at times). It'll be interesting seeing how it all pans out in time. Anyone who claims to know that Kanter or JV is going to be better is an idiot. Based on the lack of games for Kanter, that sort of thing is unknowable.
Wow hind sight is 20/20 isn't it. You give 2 examples of players whose Carriers were derailed because of injuries. None of us have any Idea how good Lopez could have been if he hadn't blow out his knee and was never able to get back to were he was before. And again Boozer was a guy that all 30 GM's passed on because there were questions about him. He was a risky pick so no one wanted to give him a guarenteed contract. But no its all about looking back and seeing who we missed not who was there at the time. Next you are going to tell be how bad a pick Chicago made by selecting Jay Williams with the #2 pick when he had an accedent that he was unable to get better from. Must just have been a terrible pick. That GM should have been fired on the spot.
Get a clue about how life really works. Injuries happen.
Well, Borchardt had known injury issues when we drafted him. Lopez's injury was a disappointment.