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Openly Gay Man Called To Serve in Key LDS Position


If you think that BYU's 70's shock aversion therapy project was the only time it happened and that was the only form of extreme ways to cure gay thoughts supported through Mormon ran organizations such as BYU and others, than you should do a little more research or talk to a few gay ex mormons. Mormons can try to separate themselves from BYU projects and research but its still a private church funded and operated University who is ultimately responsible for what happens there.
 
Did you read the link? After doing so are you really going to argue that Broncster's statemtent that "the Mormon church used electric aversion therapy to cure people who have gay thoughts" is correct?

Hmm, I'm confused with these two scenarios:

-BYU goes independent in football and one of the biggest things we hear from school officials, including the Head Coach, is how they view the football program as a very important missionary tool for the LDS church and how the added exposure of independence is only going to enhance that.

and on the flip side.....

-In the past, BYU conducts shock therapy on people with gay thoughts and we are expected to believe in this instance that BYU and the church do not go hand in hand?

That fairmormon.org article is nothing more than a PR attempt to muddy the waters and escape without blame. While not all employees and students of BYU are not LDS, it most certainly is owned and operated by the LDS Church. I think its fair to say that any program or research doesn't get very far down the road at BYU without authorities of the LDS church giving consent or being at least somewhat in the know. If not, then they are guilty of being asleep at the wheel. Either way, accept some freakin' ownership of what happens on your watch. Anybody gullible enough to believe the spin in that article deserves to be deceived.
 
@colton, thanks for that link. I have a quick question,

There is an interview floating around internet of some young, gay-Mormon who in the late 90's underwent shock therapy. He explains his experience and it is very secretive and quite painful. Are you familiar with this? Are we to assume the kid is lying? Or did BYU continue this until it was banned in 2006?

If someone is claiming that BYU was doing experimental shock therapy on him in the late 90's, then yes I'm going to go out on a limb and say the kid is lying. But without having seen the interview, I don't know the specifics of what he is claiming. Perhaps he got involved with a non-LDS church-related group. If you want to send me a copy of the specific interview I can give a more informed opinion.

I always figured the shock was a common "treatment" method that was misguided--an honest mistake.

That's exactly what it seems like to me. And the BYU experiment was not alone in this. The FAIR website details 29 other institutions doing similar research in the 1960s and 1970s.
 
If you think that BYU's 70's shock aversion therapy project was the only time it happened and that was the only form of extreme ways to cure gay thoughts supported through Mormon ran organizations such as BYU and others, than you should do a little more research or talk to a few gay ex mormons.

OK, where's your evidence? I'm willing to do a little more research if you'll provide some links to legitimate evidence.
 
Hmm, I'm confused with these two scenarios:

-BYU goes independent in football and one of the biggest things we hear from school officials, including the Head Coach, is how they view the football program as a very important missionary tool for the LDS church and how the added exposure of independence is only going to enhance that.

and on the flip side.....

-In the past, BYU conducts shock therapy on people with gay thoughts and we are expected to believe in this instance that BYU and the church do not go hand in hand?

You don't see a difference between nationally-broadcasted intercollegiate athletics, whose very purpose is to reach out to other institutions in a competitive setting, and an experimental therapy for a grad student thesis which ran for a year in the mid 1970s?

I'm a scientist working at BYU (Physics Dept). Do you seriously believe the LDS church is somehow responsible should one of my experiments go horribly wrong? If so, our viewpoints are so far different as to make further discourse pointless.


That fairmormon.org article is nothing more than a PR attempt to muddy the waters and escape without blame. While not all employees and students of BYU are not LDS, it most certainly is owned and operated by the LDS Church. I think its fair to say that any program or research doesn't get very far down the road at BYU without authorities of the LDS church giving consent or being at least somewhat in the know. If not, then they are guilty of being asleep at the wheel.

I noticed your Ute avatar. What share of the blame do you think Governor Herbert and/or the Utah state legislature would bear for a flawed experiment (psychological or otherwise) occurring at the U?
 
I'm a scientist working at BYU (Physics Dept). Do you seriously believe the LDS church is somehow responsible should one of my experiments go horribly wrong? If so, our viewpoints are so far different as to make further discourse pointless.

Thsese are a genuine questions, because I have not the foggiest notion of the answer. If you were conducting experiements at odds with Mormon doctrine, would the be alloowed? If the results of your experiments offered strong evidence disproving some aspect of Mormon teachings that made empirical claims, would those results be acknowledged and would your position be safe?

I noticed your Ute avatar. What share of the blame do you think Governor Herbert and/or the Utah state legislature would bear for a flawed experiment (psychological or otherwise) occurring at the U?

State universities have a long tradition of academic freedom, the tradition among religious universities is mixed. I do not claim to know where BYU falls on that scale.
 
You don't see a difference between nationally-broadcasted intercollegiate athletics, whose very purpose is to reach out to other institutions in a competitive setting, and an experimental therapy for a grad student thesis which ran for a year in the mid 1970s?

I'm a scientist working at BYU (Physics Dept). Do you seriously believe the LDS church is somehow responsible should one of my experiments go horribly wrong? If so, our viewpoints are so far different as to make further discourse pointless.

Not even what I was getting at, but I'm sure you already know that. The comparison is not simply between college sports and experimental therapy. The comparison is BYU not having any bit of hesitation of playing up the LDS/BYU ties during times when they see it as beneficial to their purpose, and attempting to distance themselves from each other when stuff like shocking homosexuals goes down on campus.
 
...[BYU and the LDS church attempting to distance themselves from each other when stuff like shocking homosexuals goes down on campus.

If the LDS church were trying to take credit when I make scientific discoveries (they aren't), then it would be much more shocking (ha ha) if/when the church tries to distance itself from failed scientific experiments at BYU.
 
It's funny how people are trying to prove something by saying stuff like "I know a guy" or "ask people". Provide something credible.

Also, why try and make this thread a bad pissing contest when it's a good step in the right directions for gays and the LDS church?
 
It's funny how people are trying to prove something by saying stuff like "I know a guy" or "ask people". Provide something credible.

Also, why try and make this thread a bad pissing contest when it's a good step in the right directions for gays and the LDS church?

Well said. Rep-worthy.
 
Mormons believe in The Bible. Of course they believe in The Book of Mormon more, but that's besides the point. The Bible clearly states that homosexuality is wrong. Regardless of what your personal thoughts of homosexuality is, how is Mormonism not contradicting the main source of their religion by doing this?
 
Thsese are a genuine questions, because I have not the foggiest notion of the answer. If you were conducting experiements at odds with Mormon doctrine, would the be alloowed? If the results of your experiments offered strong evidence disproving some aspect of Mormon teachings that made empirical claims, would those results be acknowledged and would your position be safe?

State universities have a long tradition of academic freedom, the tradition among religious universities is mixed. I do not claim to know where BYU falls on that scale.

I worked for 4 years for a state university in Wisconsin, and I've worked for 4 years here at BYU now. From my perspective, the academic freedom is identical. Of course, I'm doing physics research and not sociological, so perhaps I just haven't stumbled into any problematic areas. But based on conversations I've had with colleagues who are doing things that are potentially more closely related to religion, I would say even in those areas the academic freedom here is as large as it was in Wisconsin. Different, in a way that I'll explain in a second, but just as large.

One difference is that one actually HAS the freedom to pursue religiously-related research here at BYU. In Wisconsin, as near as I could tell, religion was taboo. There's no way that anyone would be involved with anything like this religious documents project there, for example: https://cpart.byu.edu/. So for that type of thing there is actually MORE academic freedom here than there. However, as you have correctly surmised, there may be LESS academic freedom at BYU in some other respects. If you start teaching as fact things that are contrary to official LDS doctrine, then I'm guessing the university would have a problem; that's apparently what happened back in Sept of 1993. (See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_Six.) So those two things average out, to my way of thinking.

The other thing to note is that the LDS church has consistently taught that all truth is part of the gospel. See Teachings of Brigham Young, for example, in the section entitled, "The gospel of Jesus Christ embraces all truth.".

Quotes from Brigham Young said:
All truth is for the salvation of the children of men—for the benefit and learning—for their furtherance in the principles of divine knowledge; and divine knowledge is any matter of fact—truth; and all truth pertains to divinity (DBY, 11).

“Mormonism,” so-called, embraces every principle pertaining to life and salvation, for time and eternity. No matter who has it. If the infidel has got truth it belongs to “Mormonism.” The truth and sound doctrine possessed by the sectarian world, and they have a great deal, all belong to this Church. As for their morality, many of them are, morally, just as good as we are. (DBY, 3).

Such a plan incorporates every system of true doctrine on the earth, whether it be ecclesiastical, moral, philosophical, or civil; it incorporates all good laws that have been made from the days of Adam until now; it swallows up the laws of nations, for it exceeds them all in knowledge and purity, it circumscribes the doctrines of the day, and takes from the right and the left, and brings all truth together in one system, and leaves the chaff to be scattered hither and thither (DBY, 3–4).

All knowledge and wisdom and every good that the heart of man can desire is within the circuit and circle of the faith we have embraced (DBY, 446).

It embraces every fact there is in the heavens and in the heaven of heavens—every fact there is upon the surface of the earth, in the bowels of the earth, and in the starry heavens (DBY, 448).

Our religion is simply the truth. It is all said in this one expression—it embraces all truth, wherever found, in all the works of God and man that are visible or invisible to mortal eye (DBY, 2).

etc.

Therefore the church teaches that if there is an apparent conflict between science and religion, it's either because we don't understand the science well enough, or we don't understand the religion well enough. That's why there are people here at BYU who study evolution, the big bang, and so forth, even though other religions may feel that there's a conflict between the Bible and those scientific theories. And that's why people at BYU were free to study ancient Mesoamerica and conclude that it's likely the Nephites/Lamanites were NOT the sole inhabitants of the Americas when they settled. And people at BYU are free to study DNA evidence which may lead to the same conclusion. As discussed in another recent LDS-related thread here, what "gave" in that apparent conflict between science and religion, was the notion that the Nephites/Lamanites were the "principal ancestors of the American Indians" (as the BoM introduction used to read). In that discussion I pointed out that the Introduction to the Book of Mormon now reads just that they were "among the ancestors of the American Indians". So faculty at BYU are absolutely free to apply scientific rigor to any of those types of things. Now, where the limitation on academic freedom would come into play, would be if someone researching Mesoamerica had said "There is evidence of multiple cultures present in the Americas during and before the time of the Nephites. That proves the Book of Mormon is false." instead of saying, "There is evidence of multiple cultures present in the Americas during and before the time of the Nephites. That proves we should reexamine our assumptions about what the Book of Mormon teaches," as they in fact did. (I think that was John Sorenson from BYU's anthropology department who said that type of thing 20+ years ago, but I could be misremembering.)

Probably a longer answer than you wanted, but that's my 2 cents about academic freedom.
 
Mormons believe in The Bible. Of course they believe in The Book of Mormon more, but that's besides the point. The Bible clearly states that homosexuality is wrong. Regardless of what your personal thoughts of homosexuality is, how is Mormonism not contradicting the main source of their religion by doing this?

The LDS church teaches (and has taught for as long as I can remember) that homosexual behavior is immoral, but that homosexual tendencies are not. I think that fits well with the Bible. If you read the news article, it says that the man had practiced the "gay lifestyle" previously, but that he wasn't engaging in homosexual behavior currently.
 
Thsese are a genuine questions, because I have not the foggiest notion of the answer. If you were conducting experiements at odds with Mormon doctrine, would the be alloowed? If the results of your experiments offered strong evidence disproving some aspect of Mormon teachings that made empirical claims, would those results be acknowledged and would your position be safe?

State universities have a long tradition of academic freedom, the tradition among religious universities is mixed. I do not claim to know where BYU falls on that scale.

Sorry to monopolize this thread, but I just went back and re-read your post. To specifically answer your question "If the results of your experiments offered strong evidence disproving some aspect of Mormon teachings that made empirical claims, would those results be acknowledged and would your position be safe?", let's take a specific example. Let's say I was studying health, and I found that a glass of wine each day reduces the chance of heart disease (as I think some researchers found 10 years ago or thereabouts). As far as I know, it would be perfectly acceptable for me to publish that result, even though some might feel it's in conflict with the Word of Wisdom. What I wouldn't be free to do is say, "Wine makes people healthier, therefore the Word of Wisdom is a false revelation. In short, it's not the facts that could be problematic for my academic freedom, it's the interpretation of those facts.
 
colton,

I accept everything you posted as accurate (at least regarding your experiences, which certainly exceed mine), with one exception.

There's no way that anyone would be involved with anything like this religious documents project there, for example: https://cpart.byu.edu/.

I did not read about this project in detail, but certainly even the most secular of scholars seem to believe ancient documents should be preserved and studied for what they reveal aobut a culture. Do you mean that a project like this would not have a strictly religious focus at a more secular university?
 
I personally can relate to those who feel like they are a man trapped in a woman's body. I too, once felt that way - then I was born.

I laughed.

Also, why try and make this thread a bad pissing contest when it's a good step in the right directions for gays and the LDS church?

It's a step in the right direction, but I think the OP and the article overstates the magnitude of step. The guy is (to my understanding, my dad was actually executive secretary of a ward in days gone by) the fourth most important person in his ward in a strict heirarchical sense. There's 13,601 LDS wards in the United States alone. I don't think any reasonable person would claim that a guy whose somewhere between 40,000 and 60,000 on the depth chart is really in a "Key" LDS position. The article is more accurate on this point by stating that it's key locally, but it's really only visible to people in his ward.

The Bible clearly states that homosexuality is wrong.

Less clear than you may believe. On the old board I went really deep on Hebrew and Greek translation on this subject once. I suggest you pick your chosen "anti-gay" scriptures and find discussions of the translation process of those passages.

For example there are lively discussions on what the "Sin of Sodom" is and Paul's use of the word "arsenokoitai" in the original Greek in 1 Corinthians is literally untranslatable, much less into anything relating to homosexuals.

Link?

Why do people continue to post garbage stuff that's not true.

If I had to guess, I'd speculate he's referring to the eighth article of faith. It's a fair statement that Mormons believe the Bible has translation errors and conflicts with the book of mormon are generally resolved in the book of mormon's favor.
 
I did not read about this project in detail, but certainly even the most secular of scholars seem to believe ancient documents should be preserved and studied for what they reveal aobut a culture. Do you mean that a project like this would not have a strictly religious focus at a more secular university?

What I mean is that even a project like that, which would seem to have as much historical significance as religious, would be taboo at most state universities because of the dreaded "R word" (religion). I've been really surprised at how little religiously-related scholarship is being done at state universities. Now, I'm just using that as a general example. I don't know the details of who specifically is assisting with that project... possibly there are some state universities (although I would be surprised). But I've heard of a few such things, research projects at BYU that seemed interesting to me, and worthwhile, but that wouldn't be done by faculty at state schools.
 
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