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The official "let's impeach Trump" thread

You think the difference between "instructed Americans to" and "talking about" is merely semantic? Odd. I agree that Trump did not instruct Americans to inject disinfectant, yet certainly was talking about injecting disinfectants, and see them as separate things.

Exactly. Because what Joe Bagadonuts is saying is that MSNBC and CNN explicitly stated that Trump told Americans to inject disinfectants. That's the whole issue under debate. I don't watch them so I am still waiting for evidence, who said it, what did they say, etc.

If Chris Cuomo or Don Lemon said "Trump told Americans to inject disinfectant," that lie would exposed by a Breitbart and Fox News headline in two microseconds.
 
Trump is very happy that we are debating this point and not talking about 25 million newly unemployed and the miles long food banks.
 
By all technical definitions, it could be argued that he suggested that, as in his conversation was something along the lines of “that’s interesting, you said we’re going to look in to that,” or suggest that things be researched, but would there be any fundamental difference in headlines between “Trump suggests injecting disinfectant as treatment for Coronavirus” vs. “Trump suggests researching injecting injecting disinfectant as treatment for Coronavirus”? If the concern legitimately is that people will go out and do this at his behest, which would be more likely to see that come to fruition, watching Trump pontificate on possible things to “look into,” or tags like this stating that he offered medical advice?

The distinction between "suggests injecting" and "suggests researching injecting" is something I would grant to anyone who supports the notion of using scientific studies as a precursor to actual medical treatment as a general principle. However, Trump has also supported the notion of Right to Try, and complained about how it takes too long for medications to get approved. From a person who says we should be able to bypass scientific studies entirely, saying "we should try this" is effectively authorizing people to do it.

As for the notion that discussing the details of his stupidity detracts from discussing his stupidity, I find that curious. I think that only applies to people who feel obliged to defend the President.
 
Trump is very happy that we are debating this point and not talking about 25 million newly unemployed and the miles long food banks.

Trump is never happy when people are making fun of him. A more typical politician, perhaps, would prefer this, but not Trump.
 
I qualified my statements that I hadn’t been watching media, only people responding to it with the idea that he recommended that. And, as I said, that was my cursory search. No, it does not say ‘instructs,’ but rather ‘suggests.’ By all technical definitions, it could be argued that he suggested that, as in his conversation was something along the lines of “that’s interesting, you said we’re going to look in to that,” or suggest that things be researched, but would there be any fundamental difference in headlines between “Trump suggests injecting disinfectant as treatment for Coronavirus” vs. “Trump suggests researching injecting injecting disinfectant as treatment for Coronavirus”? If the concern legitimately is that people will go out and do this at his behest, which would be more likely to see that come to fruition, watching Trump pontificate on possible things to “look into,” or tags like this stating that he offered medical advice?

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To be clear, what he said was stupid. But, stating he offered medical advice or people getting the impression he suggested this as more than ‘something to look into’ [or neglecting to contextualize that last part] only further distracts from how stupid the thing he said was, as this entire discussion has proved.
That difference in wording is important.

That said, why would Trump use his live Pandemic Press Briefing to spitball like that? The explanation is unavoidable. He had not conducted a sufficient private briefing before the press briefing, had not sufficiently updated himself on current efforts as per his top medical advisors, had not investigated his potential solutions (introducing UV rays into the body or injecting disinfectants), had not suggested these ideas to people who may have greater expertise than himself, had not approached the press briefing as a competent, professional and capable President of the United States of America. Instead, he used his on-air time to spitball nonsense. That's what our President did. He used his time to that is supposed to be used to update the American people and provide them with valuable information and reassurance, to instead just wing it and suggest things your average 10 year old would know better than to suggest.

That is unacceptable. Period. It is not okay.

Donald Trump needs to grow up and start taking his job seriously. Like right now.
 
The distinction between "suggests injecting" and "suggests researching injecting" is something I would grant to anyone who supports the notion of using scientific studies as a precursor to actual medical treatment as a general principle. However, Trump has also supported the notion of Right to Try, and complained about how it takes too long for medications to get approved. From a person who says we should be able to bypass scientific studies entirely, saying "we should try this" is effectively authorizing people to do it.
It does take too long for medications to get approved. 10 years. There are many reasons why that's the case, but I've mentioned before that a "cure" would not come from a novel agent. Further, Right to Try is not a Trump concept. Right to Try is employed when all other options are exhausted and prognosis is grim. It's exercised in unique circumstances (these are unique circumstances). None of those fundamentally would be argued to be bad, as you take Trump out of the equation and those ideas have long been accepted by virtually everyone. I'm also confused where Right to Try came up. Which medications was Trump pushing Right to Try for?

As for the notion that discussing the details of his stupidity detracts from discussing his stupidity, I find that curious. I think that only applies to people who feel obliged to defend the President.
Not certain if your last statement is an implication of me feeling that way, but if so I'd hope you'd expand on that with some detail.
 
That difference in wording is important.

That said, why would Trump use his live Pandemic Press Briefing to spitball like that? The explanation is unavoidable. He had not conducted a sufficient private briefing before the press briefing, had not sufficiently updated himself on current efforts as per his top medical advisors, had not investigated his potential solutions (introducing UV rays into the body or injecting disinfectants), had not suggested these ideas to people who may have greater expertise than himself, had not approached the press briefing as a competent, professional and capable President of the United States of America. Instead, he used his on-air time to spitball nonsense. That's what our President did. He used his time to that is supposed to be used to update the American people and provide them with valuable information and reassurance, to instead just wing it and suggest things your average 10 year old would know better than to suggest.

That is unacceptable. Period. It is not okay.

Donald Trump needs to grow up and start taking his job seriously. Like right now.
Yes, and if anyone were to want to use that for gain against Trump, it'd be an easy thing to not **** up. Just like Trump's connection to Epstein. It's an easy thing to not **** up. But, alas.
 
Yes, and if anyone were to want to use that for gain against Trump, it'd be an easy thing to not **** up. Just like Trump's connection to Epstein. It's an easy thing to not **** up. But, alas.
I don't know if this is the right post to respond to with this or if this is the right thread to post this in, but...

If it is Trump vs Biden I'm voting for none of the above.

Biden's sexual assault allegation has only become more and more credible. I think he should do the right thing and withdraw before it's too late for the DNC.
 
I don't know if this is the right post to respond to with this or if this is the right thread to post this in, but...

If it is Trump vs Biden I'm voting for none of the above.

Biden's sexual assault allegation has only become more and more credible. I think he should do the right thing and withdraw before it's too late for the DNC.
It'd be interesting to see what happens with it. Now is early enough that theoretically that could happen. My understanding is that the recent Larry King interview story was broke by people on the left, and shortly after the actual video surfaced from right-wing media. This should suggest that right-wing media would have preferred the timing later, obviously, when there can't really be a replacement. But in that vein, the avoidance of the issue (though people will say this is not being avoided) will delay this too long for there to be a replacement, should that avoidance continue. If Democrats addressed this now rather than later, they'd be able to push for a different candidate. I don't believe dragging feet will be helpful. But, I do believe if it continued to be largely ignored that it's not going to have that large of an effect, especially with what the ability to fall back on the default of "but Trump," which is currently playing out.
 
It does take too long for medications to get approved. 10 years. There are many reasons why that's the case, but I've mentioned before that a "cure" would not come from a novel agent. Further, Right to Try is not a Trump concept. Right to Try is employed when all other options are exhausted and prognosis is grim. It's exercised in unique circumstances (these are unique circumstances). None of those fundamentally would be argued to be bad, as you take Trump out of the equation and those ideas have long been accepted by virtually everyone. I'm also confused where Right to Try came up. Which medications was Trump pushing Right to Try for?

Right to Try is not just applied to specific medications, it's become the subject of legislatures without invoking any individual medication, and a notion that Trump has supported.

Not certain if your last statement is an implication of me feeling that way, but if so I'd hope you'd expand on that with some detail.

I'm not certain if my last sentence described you. It certainly described posters like Joe Bagadonuts. Your takes are definitely more measured and careful.
 
I don't know if this is the right post to respond to with this or if this is the right thread to post this in, but...

If it is Trump vs Biden I'm voting for none of the above.

Biden's sexual assault allegation has only become more and more credible. I think he should do the right thing and withdraw before it's too late for the DNC.

I don't know if I will vote for Biden or not. I respect those who say he is less of a rapist than Trump (lesser of two evils), and those who who say they won't vote for any rapist period. I do believe Tara Reade. Biden stepping aside would be ideal.
 
Right to Try is not just applied to specific medications, it's become the subject of legislatures without invoking any individual medication, and a notion that Trump has supported.
I haven’t heard anything about this. Can you guide me to some information? Right to Try is for specific medications under investigation that don’t have approval (aren’t on market). It’d make it hard to legislate in a blanket fashion without any specific medications.
 
I think you misunderstood. Can you guide me to discussion of using Right to Try broadly and legislating it beyond what it currently is? That was the part I haven’t heard discussed recently (relative to COVID-19). I know what Right to Try is.

ETA: or are you saying that you disagree with RTT broadly and because Trump supports that, that he’s implying that “researching” ____ equates to tacit suggestion of people going ahead and using it?
 
I think you misunderstood. Can you guide me to discussion of using Right to Try broadly and legislating it beyond what it currently is?

Before, you said "Right to Try is for specific medications under investigation", but the legislation is not written with specific medications in mind. It applies to any medication in any kind of clinical trial. So, just what do you mean by "broadly" here?

Also, since the point of my post was that, as 'a person who says we should be able to bypass scientific studies entirely, saying "we should try this" is effectively authorizing people to do it.', do you think that focusing on a precise definition of Right to Try could be seen as something that "only further distracts from how stupid the thing he said was"?
 
ETA: or are you saying that you disagree with RTT broadly and because Trump supports that, that he’s implying that “researching” ____ equates to tacit suggestion of people going ahead and using it?

I agree that Right to Try probably does more harm to patients than help, but so does, for example, smoking. I approve of it being legal in terms of civil liberties, but like smoking, it's not something I would promote.

Yes, when Trump sends the message that scientific studies are not needed to decide effective treatments, and then suggests trying something as an effective treatment, he's not suggesting it as a scientific study.
 
Before, you said "Right to Try is for specific medications under investigation", but the legislation is not written with specific medications in mind. It applied to any medication in any kind of clinical trial. So, just what do you mean by "broadly" here?

When you had mentioned Trump and Right to Try, I had misunderstood you in thinking that he must have somehow connected Right to Try to something currently going on with Covid-19, so when you spoke of legislation surrounding it, I had still been under the impression that you were speaking about current legislation surrounding Right to Try as it would (presumably) relate to Covid-19 (which wasn't something I had heard), and would require specifying something because there's nothing in currently in an official phase of trial and therefor if legislation were attempting to apply to that, it would require specifying something because it would require certain treatments to official be under investigation. But I now understand what you're saying.

Also, since the point of my post was that, as 'a person who says we should be able to bypass scientific studies entirely, saying "we should try this" is effectively authorizing people to do it.'
I don't think that's a fair assessment, though. Supporting the principles behind Right to Try =/= blanketly believing in ''bypass[ing] scientific studies entirely." Also, the type of person who's going to parse through all that nuance of Right to Try legislation to derive meaning from Trump's words has enough wherewithal to not be the same person who injects disinfectant or drinks bleach. Right to Try encompasses very specific scenarios. You can't generalize anyone's opinion regarding Right to Try with relation to anything else. As I've mentioned multiple times, clinical scenarios are all different, and there are many variables that change the calculus in terms of what becomes acceptable for any given situation. FDA regulation is intended to provide a layer of safety. That's really important for a lot of things. Important for trials of treatments for gastric reflux, or hyperlipidemia, or restless leg syndrome. When someone is terminally ill, it changes the risk and benefit equation, thus enters Right to Try. But supporting Right to Try doesn't mean you would also bypass the typical standards for GERD medications just because you're allowing someone with end-stage ALS to receive an experimental treatment.
 
I don't think that's a fair assessment, though. Supporting the principles behind Right to Try =/= blanketly believing in ''bypass[ing] scientific studies entirely."

I found your entire post to be completely reasonable and sensible, except for this point. While I agree that the people who carefully examined Right to Try will not be those who drink bleach, a lot of the surrounding media about right to try was about bypassing scientific standards to allow people to get cures. To many people, that's exactly what Right to Try was.

In this case, you even had the usual quacks hawking their bleach concoctions using what the President said as support. There is a connection for many people, even if not for us.
 
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