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Memo's First Game in Europa

The Jazz probably re-signed him because they feared the lack of availability of high-quality centers. But that money was better spent on the likes of Matthews, and Koufos + Fesenko (+ Elson) could've produced better defense at the 5 spot while staying out of the way of Boozer (or Jefferson) offensively.

at the time Okur was extended: Matthews was an undrafted free agent yet to play a single second in the league, Koufos was coming off his rookie season in which he imploded after the first half, Fesenko played all of 156 minutes the previous season, and Elson was under contract with another team.

and yet you wonder why KOC chose to extend Okur for just two seasons (Haywood got six) instead of going with your plan.

the truth is, after getting Okur to sign for just two more years he probably figured you haters would rejoice. if he got injured, he'd be gone in just three seasons, instead of the six that Boozer was insisting on getting.
 
I'm an *******.

But whoever made the call to extend Memo is an even bigger *******. It simply did not need to happen at the time, and if everything unfolded the same way in 2010 for Memo (let's just pretend), who knows what would be different now. You can all but guarantee Wes would still be here.
No on the Matthews assumption. I don't think the Jazz were willing to go that high, even had they not been into the luxury tax. It was an outrageous offer for a guy who was undrafted, had 1/2 year as a starter and didn't play that well in the post-season. Portland took a HUGE risk that Matthews still had a lot of upside. And now we know why...Roy can barely play on those knees.

If Utah had matched Portland's offer, and Matthews responded with an average season (say 13 pts/per), 80% of this board would be screaming for KOC's head, calling it the 2nd worst contract in Jazz history behind AK's deal.
 
One 'small' weakness in your analysis <<rolleyes>>: Utah was 27th--even worse--in 3p% during 2008-2009, the season before Okur was reupped, and 26th in 3PA. (They went up 7th best 3p% but that couldv'e been aided by the presence of Wesley Matthews, shooting 38% in his rookie year from the three, only underscoring my argument, that the money was better spent elsewhere).

In other words, with Okur out most of the year last season, Utah's ranking didn't slip (not that there was far to slip) vs. 2008-2009 and arguably improved. Okur's rain wouldn't have been missed.
https://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/...rt/avgThreePointFieldGoalsAttempted/year/2009

The Jazz probably re-signed him because they feared the lack of availability of high-quality centers. But that money was better spent on the likes of Matthews, and Koufos + Fesenko (+ Elson) could've produced better defense at the 5 spot while staying out of the way of Boozer (or Jefferson) offensively. And, as has been stated so eloquently (including Numberically) elsewhere, there was no rush to tie up the Turk one year early. He was not a playoff piece (despite being ranked as a top 10 center), and the wheels were starrting to wear down.
Crystal ball, IGS. You're assuming the Jazz could have known that they would draft Hayward and he would go on a tear the last half of the season. Also, that they could get a trade exception from Chicago for Boozer and turn that around into a viable center. Yes, you're exactly correct that the extension was to get Okur to remain. Had Utah NOT acquired Jefferson, do you think a rotation of Fesenko, Koufos and Elson would have have been sufficient at the 5?

The last time Boozer went out for a long stretch with injuries, Okur and Millsap were on fire: Millsap posted a string of double-doubles and Okur shot nearly 60% on his 3's for a month. Elson and Koufos providing better defense...REALLY? And Fesenko? Koufos PERHAPS has a chance to become an 15 min/per backup. The other two will never see another NBA game except on TV.
 
Did anyone here seriously think Memo was going to be a key part of a championship team in Utah before his extension? The mistake KOC made was waiting one year too long to unload Boozer and Memo. The writing was on the wall.
 
1. $8.7mil is nearly the same as $10.4mil?

2. How does one bad contract excuse another?

3. Wes Matthews.

4. Mark Cuban.

we get it that you don't think Okur can play.

take off your blinders for a moment and you'll see that in the summer of 2009 he was a competent player at a position that is difficult to fill. what were the plausible alternatives for the Jazz at center for the next three seasons? Koufos had shown nothing and Fesenko was even worse. there were no high draft picks for the Jazz on the horizon.

the deal that Haywood got from Cuban seems to show that KOC hardly went ape-s**t crazy when he extended Okur for (all of) two seasons.

for an impartial take on the Okur deal, see:

https://jazzfanz.com/showthread.php?781-Hollinger-thinks-the-Okur-extension-is-quot-genius-quot
 
Did anyone here seriously think Memo was going to be a key part of a championship team in Utah before his extension? The mistake KOC made was waiting one year too long to unload Boozer and Memo. The writing was on the wall.

yes, you're a communist, but do you have to be so dammed negative? come on, the Jazz looked pretty good circa 2009. they just kept running into the wrong team in the playoffs.
 
Did anyone here seriously think Memo was going to be a key part of a championship team in Utah before his extension? The mistake KOC made was waiting one year too long to unload Boozer and Memo. The writing was on the wall.
Millers have never made a championship a priority. The objective has always been to make the playoffs, thereby keeping up season ticket and merchandise sales and ensuring a profit. Re-sign Memo and you've ensured yourself a quality 5 who is probably going to play in 90% of the games (unlike Boozer). The achilles injury was unfortunate and unforeseen, Until then, Memo had been pretty durable. With a core of Memo, Millsap, AK and Deron, you're probably going to win 40-50 games.

You also have to take a look at what you have and what's available. Jazz had Koufos and Fesenko and the 5 is the toughest position to fill. On the other hand, KOC could afford to let Boozer go because he had Millsap ready to start.
 
No on the Matthews assumption. I don't think the Jazz were willing to go that high, even had they not been into the luxury tax. It was an outrageous offer for a guy who was undrafted, had 1/2 year as a starter and didn't play that well in the post-season. Portland took a HUGE risk that Matthews still had a lot of upside. And now we know why...Roy can barely play on those knees.

If Utah had matched Portland's offer, and Matthews responded with an average season (say 13 pts/per), 80% of this board would be screaming for KOC's head, calling it the 2nd worst contract in Jazz history behind AK's deal.

What are you smoking? 13 points per game on his rookie percentages is very good for an MLE player, especially one that is in his second year.

And FWIW, matching Matthews and looking at the longterm financial impact is paramount. Just in the first year of that deal, the Jazz are just mailing $7 million to Stern without taking any other salary paid or other consequences taken into consideration. The Jazz weighed what would make their money work better, Jefferson/Raja for too much money, or Wes and having no real center. I don't believe that keeping Wes and finalizing the trade for Jefferson were ever honestly under consideration.

But the Jazz loved Wes. The fans loved Wes. He showed more in his rookie season than anyone on the Jazz has since Hornacek. That doesn't necessarily mean a ton, and I was a detractor on his talent, too. But I have no doubts now and I didn't at the time that the Jazz would've matched the deal had the Jazz not totally ****ed themselves with Memo and AK ($27 million dollars, that's half the cap.).
 
we get it that you don't think Okur can play...take off your blinders for a moment and you'll see that in the summer of 2009 he was a competent player...the deal that Haywood got from Cuban seems to show that KOC hardly went ape-s**t crazy when he extended Okur
I'm not sure who you're responding to, but it's certainly not me. I never said I didn't think Okur could play (...or was an incompetent player). I never said that KOC was ape-**** crazy for extending Okur.

I didn't think it was worth locking him up a year early for the "discount" that was given, taking into account what direction the Jazz were headed in. Philosophically, I thought the Jazz should have waited, and if they were convinced that Boozer was gone and/or they weren't going to contend for a title in the proceeding few years, shopped the hell out of Memo and Boozer. It's too bad the Jazz FO settled for mediocrity.
 
What are you smoking? 13 points per game on his rookie percentages is very good for an MLE player, especially one that is in his second year.
In the case of Memo, 10.5 mil for 13 points per game was appropriate...
 
Above average big men always get paid more than they are worth. See Brandon Haywood, Erik Dampier, etc.
 
But I have no doubts now and I didn't at the time that the Jazz would've matched the deal had the Jazz not totally ****ed themselves with Memo and AK ($27 million dollars, that's half the cap.).

so you think that KOC should leave a $10 million hole in the salary structure every summer just in case one of his undrafted camp invitees happens to get a big offer from another team the next summer?
 
at the time Okur was extended: Matthews was an undrafted free agent yet to play a single second in the league,
But at the time Okur's contract ended, Matthews had played a year in the league, and that's when the Jazz should've considered extending Okur, instead of the year before, for precisely these reasons: to have more data on how Okur was doing (he regressed in his last year of the first contract after the extension was already sign) and to see who was out there who would be more valuable (i.e., a Matthews with huge upside for the equally anemic wing spot rather than a declining Okur).

Koufos was coming off his rookie season in which he imploded after the first half,
Koufos was coming along OK until about February when Sloan, without any reason whatsoever, demoted his modest minutes to mere scraps. Koufos lost development, and Sloan made no effort to find time for him. While it was disappointing that KK didn't really recover until after he was traded, the effort on finding development minutes for him (even when the existing rotation was sucking wind or when the outcome of the game was not in question) was virtually nonexistent.

For Koufos, any weak argument that he wasn't putting forth effort in practice is moot, because he was a diligent worker. But like with Fesenko, the coaching staff made no attempt whatsoever to grant him more than about 5 minutes per available game (after you average in the multiple DNPs especially in the second half of the season), and that's not enough time for a player--diligent or not--to develop, especially if he's a big man. This is a trend that was repeated several times in the Sloan era and is a core reason why Sloan should have been let go gracefully a long time ago--and is also a core reason why Utah wasn't a legitimate contender since Stockton-to-Malone: the supporting cast wasn't sufficiently developed.

Fesenko played all of 156 minutes the previous season, and Elson was under contract with another team.
The scanty minutes for Fesenko are symptomatic of the same coaching fallacy that was committed with Koufos. The key difference here is that--on average--Fesenko had more positive impact than KK, but his off-court work ethic gave Sloan an excuse not to play him (even though on-court performance is what matters, and even though the existing big-man rotation not named Millsap was piss-poor on D, warranting the scrubs to come in for a few minutes at a time anyway just to enforce performance among the regular rotation, including Okur).

and yet you wonder why KOC chose to extend Okur for just two seasons (Haywood got six) instead of going with your plan.
An analysis of the rest of the team is not necessary to come to the valid conclusion that re-signing Okur was not worth it; analyzing the alternatives (Matthews, when Okur's contract was actually over) and the replacements (developing a half-way decent defensive center was a better complement to Boozer and Millsap than Okur was anyway) merely supported the no-go decision. In 2009, Okur was already slowing down, making his defense even more so-so than it was, and thus an analysis of Okur's potential should have been all that was necessary. The rest is only gravy.

the truth is, after getting Okur to sign for just two more years he probably figured you haters would rejoice. if he got injured, he'd be gone in just three seasons, instead of the six that Boozer was insisting on getting.
It's not much of a consolation that it was a bad contract for only two years rather than longer. And the notion that beating your head against the wall for two hours feels better than for longer isn't much consolation, either.
 
But at the time Okur's contract ended, Matthews had played a year in the league, and that's when the Jazz should've considered extending Okur, instead of the year before, for precisely these reasons: to have more data on how Okur was doing (he regressed in his last year of the first contract after the extension was already sign) and to see who was out there who would be more valuable (i.e., a Matthews with huge upside for the equally anemic wing spot rather than a declining Okur).

if they hadn't extended Okur he would have become an unrestricted free agent. i realize you think he is horrible, but he certainly would have gotten offers from other teams (like Haywood did, for about $35 million more). and the Jazz were far over the salary cap with or without Okur. there wasn't going to be anyone else to "sign" if Okur was gone.

Koufos was coming along OK until about February when Sloan, without any reason whatsoever, demoted his modest minutes to mere scraps...

this is a serious question: did it ever occur to you that maybe, just maybe, Koufos can't play? has he shown anything since escaping the clutches of our former coach?

The minutes for Fesenko is symptomatic of the same problem with Koufos...

did you know that Fesenko went down with a serious injury at the Eurobasket tournament? i might have missed it, in another thread maybe, where you congratulated KOC for not giving Fesenko a multiyear deal right before an injury (like he did to Okur)... you did congratulate him, right?

It's not much of a consolation that it was a bad contract for only two years rather than longer...

Mavs fans will probably disagree with you during years 4, 5, and 6 of the Brendan Haywood era.
 
so you think that KOC should leave a $10 million hole in the salary structure every summer just in case one of his undrafted camp invitees happens to get a big offer from another team the next summer?
When dealing with a guy that was never the answer and was never going to be the answer? And a lot can happen in a year. And none of this erases that the Jazz didn't have to extend him at that time. That did nothing but limit their options.
 
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