The off-season strategies (Jazz have limited options)

[Handlogten's Heros]

We have a better chance of winning a title with this line of thinking than what we currently have.

Hypothetically, we could trade Rudy for Wiseman and Wiggins then trade Conley for Horford, Thybulle and picks. We stock up on young talent and picks around Don, Wiseman, Thybulle, Joe, Royce and even Bojan. It's not super exciting to fight for the playoffs, but I bet we could make the playoffs. In a few years, we become a power without having to worry about Steph Curry, LeBron James, James Harden, Kawhi, etc.

There will always be a Curry, James, Harden... it was Duncan, Dirk, Nash... Hakeem, Jordan...

I'd want to do much better than #2 in a bad draft and a ******, ****** contract in Wiggins. I'd want the Minny pick they own. I'm only trading Rudy if he isn't willing to re-sign at less than the super max.

This Heat run has kinda emboldened me not to give up on a really, really good player because he doesn't fit perfectly in an smallball/analytics world (even though the advanced analytics on Rudy are pretty amazing).

I think Rudy is one of the pieces you need to compete with the Lakers. We have to find a way to add to it. If he isn't willing to stay I'm all for a major shakeup type deal that gets pieces that help us be competitive now and maybe increase our ceiling in the future. There will always be superstars you need to contend with to be the best... that's why its hard/almost impossible.

 

[LoPo]

There will always be a Curry, James, Harden... it was Duncan, Dirk, Nash... Hakeem, Jordan...

I'd want to do much better than #2 in a bad draft and a ******, ****** contract in Wiggins. I'd want the Minny pick they own. I'm only trading Rudy if he isn't willing to re-sign at less than the super max.

This Heat run has kinda emboldened me not to give up on a really, really good player because he doesn't fit perfectly in an smallball/analytics world (even though the advanced analytics on Rudy are pretty amazing).

I think Rudy is one of the pieces you need to compete with the Lakers. We have to find a way to add to it. If he isn't willing to stay I'm all for a major shakeup type deal that gets pieces that help us be competitive now and maybe increase our ceiling in the future. There will always be superstars you need to contend with to be the best... that's why its hard/almost impossible.

We beat Hakeem, Robinson, and others when we had 2 top 20 players of all time. And I don't consider LeBron or Curry to be that same caliber anyway. We never beat Pip and MJ because we never made the right moves.

I definitely think we are better right now with Rudy no doubt. I also don't believe we have a shot against the Lakers and many others. We can't even get out of the first round. Sure, Bojan was hurt, but who will be hurt next year? We just don't have the depth anyway.

We need layers of good players like Miami. We don't have the superstars OR the layers of depth.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

We beat Hakeem, Robinson, and others when we had 2 top 20 players of all time. And I don't consider LeBron or Curry to be that same caliber anyway. We never beat Pip and MJ because we never made the right moves.

I definitely think we are better right now with Rudy no doubt. I also don't believe we have a shot against the Lakers and many others. We can't even get out of the first round. Sure, Bojan was hurt, but who will be hurt next year? We just don't have the depth anyway.

We need layers of good players like Miami. We don't have the superstars OR the layers of depth.

Yeah I'm just saying there will always be transcendent talents. If James fades you enter the era of Luka, Zion, or some other guy out there... hell maybe its Murray and Jokic that leveled up and become the team to beat. I don't think extending the window to 3-5 years from now is smart. I like Wiseman but he won't help you win for a few years.

I think we have to figure out a way to keep Rudy in the paint more. I think zones being so prevalent will help Quin add some variation. I think Rudy and DM are both stars, but Rudy has some unique strengths and weaknesses that add some limitation... but... I think you can work around it.

Depth can be fixed. We need some draft luck and every title team needs injury luck. Even Lebron has needed some luck in his title runs... and even GS the MegaSuperTeam lost because they had bad injury luck.

I'm just not ready to send Rudy out for a gamble yet. Jimmy was dismissed by 3 teams (kind of). The game is evolving so rapidly that you might send Rudy out and realize you need exactly what he brings. Unfortunately unless you go full process trading Rudy doesn't help us become a contender imo.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

The big swing would really be moving Conley and that isn't easy. It likely isn't even something they are considering. There is also a scenario where it leaves us worse and in worse shape financially.

So short of finding the next Christian Wood or really nailing a pick we will hopefully be a slightly better version of our current team next year. Plug a couple obvious holes but can't really improve on our top 7 guys.

 

[Joncolton]

lly be moving Conley and that isn't easy. It likely isn't even something they are considering. There is also a scenario where it leaves us worse and in worse shape financially.

I hope they are considering it. Strongly considering it. The evidence is pretty damning. The Jazz playoff team won a greater percentage of games when Juwan Morgan was starting.

Also consider when they won 19 out of 21 games, Mike Conley missed most of those. And it's possibly I'm imagining things and reading too much into body language, but there were a lot of games where it felt like (to me at least) that Conley didn't want to be here. If that's true the Jazz have to secretly looking for the best deal they can get.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I hope they are considering it. Strongly considering it. The evidence is pretty damning. The Jazz playoff team won a greater percentage of games when Juwan Morgan was starting.

Also consider when they won 19 out of 21 games, Mike Conley missed most of those. And it's possibly I'm imagining things and reading too much into body language, but there were a lot of games where it felt like (to me at least) that Conley didn't want to be here. If that's true the Jazz have to secretly looking for the best deal they can get.

Its not that simple. Mike was very good in the playoffs. Mike struggled during game 7 but the whole team did.

During the year Mike never seemed really comfortable... I think he wanted to be here... he wanted to fit in and it wasn't as natural as everyone hoped. Mike is better than what he showed this year, but I wonder if they can have a good enough defense with the size issues that come with playing Mike and DM together for large portions of the game. There is also a scenario where JC walks and Mike can function as the leader of the second team and play less minutes with the starters.

I would poke around a few situations and see what they could get, Philly is the main one to watch as Mike gives them a ton of what they need. If they are desperate to offload Al Horford they might offer up something very good. Not that we'd even keep Horford, but we could get in the middle of a deal and soak up some value and hopefully get something that fits better. That scenario is not very likely imo... I think Philly will try to unload Horford but will only offer solid assets and not a treasure trove. They likely think Doc solves some of their issues.

Long story short... you don't trade Mike just to trade him. We may get some salary relief when they redo the CBA and then we can address a few roster holes with the MLE.

 

[LoPo]

Yeah I'm just saying there will always be transcendent talents. If James fades you enter the era of Luka, Zion, or some other guy out there... hell maybe its Murray and Jokic that leveled up and become the team to beat. I don't think extending the window to 3-5 years from now is smart. I like Wiseman but he won't help you win for a few years.

I think we have to figure out a way to keep Rudy in the paint more. I think zones being so prevalent will help Quin add some variation. I think Rudy and DM are both stars, but Rudy has some unique strengths and weaknesses that add some limitation... but... I think you can work around it.

Depth can be fixed. We need some draft luck and every title team needs injury luck. Even Lebron has needed some luck in his title runs... and even GS the MegaSuperTeam lost because they had bad injury luck.

I'm just not ready to send Rudy out for a gamble yet. Jimmy was dismissed by 3 teams (kind of). The game is evolving so rapidly that you might send Rudy out and realize you need exactly what he brings. Unfortunately unless you go full process trading Rudy doesn't help us become a contender imo.

I don't want to trade Rudy unless he won't commit to a fair contract extension. We would be idioitic and irresponsible to lose another all star for nothing.

As for depth, I wish it was easy but its clearly not. Ed Davis and Green were absolute bombs. We had to be one of the thinnest teams in the playoffs.



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[Joncolton]

Its not that simple. Mike was very good in the playoffs. Mike struggled during game 7 but the whole team did.

During the year Mike never seemed really comfortable... I think he wanted to be here... he wanted to fit in and it wasn't as natural as everyone hoped. Mike is better than what he showed this year, but I wonder if they can have a good enough defense with the size issues that come with playing Mike and DM together for large portions of the game. There is also a scenario where JC walks and Mike can function as the leader of the second team and play less minutes with the starters.

I would poke around a few situations and see what they could get, Philly is the main one to watch as Mike gives them a ton of what they need. If they are desperate to offload Al Horford they might offer up something very good. Not that we'd even keep Horford, but we could get in the middle of a deal and soak up some value and hopefully get something that fits better. That scenario is not very likely imo... I think Philly will try to unload Horford but will only offer solid assets and not a treasure trove. They likely think Doc solves some of their issues.

Long story short... you don't trade Mike just to trade him. We may get some salary relief when they redo the CBA and then we can address a few roster holes with the MLE.

It’s probably just an emotional reaction at this point, but the more I think about the season the better that Julius Randle deal starts to look. At this point I’d take Randle over Blake Griffin. He literally overages twice as many rebounds last season, scored 5 more ppg and shot better from 3.

I think he could be a big difference maker for us on the defensive side of the floor as well, and he’s only 25.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I don't want to trade Rudy unless he won't commit to a fair contract extension. We would be idioitic and irresponsible to lose another all star for nothing.

As for depth, I wish it was easy but its clearly not. Ed Davis and Green were absolute bombs. We had to be one of the thinnest teams in the playoffs.



Sent from my SM-G970U using JazzFanz mobile app

We have more to work with as it relates to depth now. We also have a better idea of what we need. I think it’s reasonable to believe one of the g league guys or a draft pick will add to our depth next year. At very least TB will be a year better... not that he has a huge ceiling but he will be better.

I think the depth is one issue and is easier to solve. The bigger issue of an upgrade at the wing is what would really increase the ceiling of the team.

 

[idiot]

It’s probably just an emotional reaction at this point, but the more I think about the season the better that Julius Randle deal starts to look. At this point I’d take Randle over Blake Griffin. He literally overages twice as many rebounds last season, scored 5 more ppg and shot better from 3.

I think he could be a big difference maker for us on the defensive side of the floor as well, and he’s only 25.

Having a hard time telling if this is a serious post. You're comparing Randle to one of the season's worst (injury-riddled) stat lines with Griffin? Randle with the .538 TS% and .277 3pt%? With the highest turnovers/possession among all league PFs? And a defensive difference maker? What are you seeing that I'm not?

 

[Joncolton]

Having a hard time telling if this is a serious post. You're comparing Randle to one of the season's worst (injury-riddled) stat lines with Griffin? Randle with the .538 TS% and .277 3pt%? With the highest turnovers/possession among all league PFs? And a defensive difference maker? What are you seeing that I'm not?

Griffin was playing injured? I would presume he was healthy enough to play in the games where he stepped on the floor. They don't keep track of your stats while you're in the hospital. Also, Julius Randle is 25, Griffin is 30 and has quite an injury history. Yes, at this point I would take Randle over Griffin.

Also, all this talk about trading Gobert is insanity. Donovan and him have mended fences, and Gobert is not going to get the SUPER - MAX from the Jazz, because he wouldn't get from anyone else. That being said - you absolutely need DPOY to win a championship (or at least someone who is close to one). The Warriors won rings with Draymond. And if you look at who is left in the Finals, AD came in 2nd place in DPOY voting, while Bam Adebayo came in 5th. That's not coincidence. Trying to win a championship without a DPOY top five candidate would be like trying to make bread without flour.

 

[Ujfanatic]

Great points Jom, I have one small difference though - Given Donovan's performance in these playoffs I'd say the time is RIGHT NOW.

while I concede that Donovan has been historically great at times, it would take a historic performance for a 4th year player to lead his team to the finals. It has happened, but not often. More often we see superstar players get into their finals runs starting around their 6th or 7th year in the league.

If the Jazz are going to reconstruct, I think the timeline should be to compete 3-4 years from now and they would have to start rebuilding now (ie trade Gobert). Get to the lottery a time or two, take some risks on a few low risk high reward free agents or trades. If it works, great. You’ve regressed for a few years early in Donovan’s extension and are set up to maximize Donovan’s prime years/last years of his extension as a title contender. If the team fails to get the needed pieces around their star (eg Indiana with George; New Orleans with Davis) Donovan will be doing what all the other small market superstars start doing by year 8: letting the team know he plans to opt out of year 9 and encourages a trade to his preferred destination(s).

 

[PattBattMann]

I doubt that the Pacers will do it, but I really like the Gobert for Oladipo/Turner deal. Turner is one of the best young bigs in the league and can you imagine a Mitchell/Olapido backcourt?

 

[Jazzmix]

while I concede that Donovan has been historically great at times, it would take a historic performance for a 4th year player to lead his team to the finals. It has happened, but not often. More often we see superstar players get into their finals runs starting around their 6th or 7th year in the league.

If the Jazz are going to reconstruct, I think the timeline should be to compete 3-4 years from now and they would have to start rebuilding now (ie trade Gobert). Get to the lottery a time or two, take some risks on a few low risk high reward free agents or trades. If it works, great. You’ve regressed for a few years early in Donovan’s extension and are set up to maximize Donovan’s prime years/last years of his extension as a title contender. If the team fails to get the needed pieces around their star (eg Indiana with George; New Orleans with Davis) Donovan will be doing what all the other small market superstars start doing by year 8: letting the team know he plans to opt out of year 9 and encourages a trade to his preferred destination(s).

I don't think that it makes any sense to start a rebuild now. We have a good team which with a bit of luck in draft, smart small moves etc may go on deeper run. Planning just on Donovan's peak in 3 years is a risky strategy, you never know what may happen, injuries and so. I would trade Rudy only if he wants out or doesn't want to take anything less than a supermax. Anyway we are not going to get something great in return for him.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Alright... here is something I would try to get done. Chicago likely wants to have cap space next year in the 2021 FA bonanza. They also will likely have prospects and high draft picks they need to get on the court. Markanan, Carter will want starter minutes... White Lavine Sato soak up a lot of the guard minutes... not sure they will draft another guard or they may go wing. On the wing they have OP Jr. and will likely want to get Hutchison some minutes. I think they take a wing with #4. All that said they may not have a ton of minutes for Thad Young.

I think we could give them TB, Ed for Thad straight up. Saves them $5M this year and opens up at least $6M in cap space for the following year (Thad's deal is only $6M guaranteed in the last year). They have a notoriously cheap owner. The money savings will be a factor to him for sure.

I really like Thad for us. He gets a ton of deflections and steals and gives us someone who is the right size for a modern 4. He shoots it well enough to stretch the floor and would be an excellent pick and roll partner for Joe. Has traditionally been a good finisher and has lots of weird **** he can do around the rim. Also has a lot of half hook post stuff that works against players of all sizes.

I would use him as the backup center and have him play 12 min at pf and 12 min at center per game. It's not something he has done and we couldn't play drop big with him at center, but he is extremely disruptive (4 deflections per 36 and 2.1 steals) and he contests a fair amount of shots... takes a fair amount of charges... so his rotations are on point. He might not protect the rim as well as some but would he be worse than Bradley? He'd provide a 5 out look and give our defense a changeup. He'd help us size up and can help on the bigger wings. In the playoffs you see guys his size (6'8 ish with a 7+ ft wingspan) play center a lot. You commit to it during the season... you live with its short comings and in the playoffs we have another look to help us matchup and it will hopefully pay dividends.

Its weird and different but we need something like this imo.

 

[LoPo]

I doubt that the Pacers will do it, but I really like the Gobert for Oladipo/Turner deal. Turner is one of the best young bigs in the league and can you imagine a Mitchell/Olapido backcourt?

If Gobert wants out, I definitely agree that this should be our first attempt. Sabonis fits perfectly next to Gobert. TJ Warren and Brogdon fit as well.

Oladipo is a gamble for us, but a gamble worth taking if we can also get Turner.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

If Gobert wants out, I definitely agree that this should be our first attempt. Sabonis fits perfectly next to Gobert. TJ Warren and Brogdon fit as well.

Oladipo is a gamble for us, but a gamble worth taking if we can also get Turner.

I would think Turner is a better fit with Sabonis and that if they pivot they use Turner to get a wing. Also have Goga developing so big is likely not the target of a Oladipo deal.

 

[Eastern Orthodoxy]

I like the idea of Thaddeus Young better than the actual Thaddeus Young. But, caveats 1) I absolutely agree we should be trying to do something with Chicago. 2) Even the actual Thaddeus Young is better than TB and Ed Davis.

 

[homeytennis]

I like the idea of Thaddeus Young better than the actual Thaddeus Young. But, caveats 1) I absolutely agree we should be trying to do something with Chicago. 2) Even the actual Thaddeus Young is better than TB and Ed Davis.

Jazz need to improve their depth. Our bench at times last year was just super awful. I find it hard to believe that GLeague players would be worse than last year's subs.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I like the idea of Thaddeus Young better than the actual Thaddeus Young. But, caveats 1) I absolutely agree we should be trying to do something with Chicago. 2) Even the actual Thaddeus Young is better than TB and Ed Davis.

Thad is defensively similar to Robert Covington imo. Doesn't have the volume 3P shooting but has some other stuff in his bag. I think he'd provide some much needed versatility and I'd love us to run a slightly different scheme when Rudy isn't on the floor. At very least Thad is disruptive and would not be a giant bullseye to opposing offenses like TB is.