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This is a loss.

Handlogten's Heros said:
Homey... I voted for Biden for reasons you stated above. People are complex and nuanced. It is not just simply vote for the person I think is best or you are an uneducated redneck racist... sorry. There are ****** loud people that are openly racist that support Trump I get that. Its republicans saying Dems are all free loading socialist millennials that want something for nothing.

I am not saying don't make it better... I am not saying repeat the same ********. I am sayin if you leave because this place is so awful... you will likely find things just as awful or more awful about the place you go to. Recognizing the good here and improving on the bad is exactly what we should do. Simply bailing is not a solution. Hate and racism are more prevalent than I thought... but uncovering it is a good step in moving forward.

The fact that we have a lot of loud people asking for change is great and should give hope. Maybe... just maybe there are changes that need to be made to the approach Dems are taking because it seems to be biting them in the ***.

Many of the folks I know that are voting for Trump aren't uneducated and they aren't dumb. They are protecting the pocket book and are afraid of spinning off into socialism. Real or not that is what they vote on. The whole all or nothing... you are either with us or you are a piece of **** is not an attitude that wins people to your cause. Don't worry about the racist flag flying gun toting assholes... speak to the people in the middle... that's where most people land.

My views on politics are way too simple and likely outdated. I'd like as much equality as possible, I'd like small efficient government, and I'd like to be safe and given an opportunity to prosper.
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You voted the way you did because of your principles. The Trump voters do the same thing. That is what I am saying. Trump isn't the only republican who has the ideals that those voters look for. But he does have all those terrible qualities and he has stirred up a passion in the right we haven't seen in a long, long time. That is terrifying.

I agree with your paragraphs 2 and 3.

Paragraph 4...if you think Biden is a socialist...you are pretty ignorant. If you think he will reduce their pocketbook...unless you are making $400,000 a year, he won't and less than 1% make that much and it probably ain't your folks that you know and if you don't understand how Biden's tax plan works...you aren't making $400,000 which kind of makes you...ignorant at best.

I worry about the racist flag flying assholes when the president calls them good people, tells them to stand by, and openly courts them and their wack-o conspiracy theories (QAnon, etc). It is an all or none.

I agree with equality, I think asking for a small and efficient government is what everyone wants, I'm not sure that is a reality with how big population wise and money wise the US is, and I also want to be safe and prosper.

Like you've said, the left and right are so close together. We need to purge the racist, sexist, bigoted bullcrap and actually talk about real issues. And Trump doesn't allow that. And my concern is that a lot of the right's leadership, such as Spencer Cox (who supports Trump and QAnon), Mike Lee, McConnel, Lindsey don't allow that. Again, when the people who represent a certain party are racist and bigots and sexist and people keep voting for them...maybe the problem isn't the narrative or the news or the left.
 
green said:
You voted the way you did because of your principles. The Trump voters do the same thing. That is what I am saying. Trump isn't the only republican who has the ideals that those voters look for. But he does have all those terrible qualities and he has stirred up a passion in the right we haven't seen in a long, long time. That is terrifying.

I agree with your paragraphs 2 and 3.

Paragraph 4...if you think Biden is a socialist...you are pretty ignorant. If you think he will reduce their pocketbook...unless you are making $400,000 a year, he won't and less than 1% make that much and it probably ain't your folks that you know and if you don't understand how Biden's tax plan works...you aren't making $400,000 which kind of makes you...ignorant at best.

I worry about the racist flag flying assholes when the president calls them good people, tells them to stand by, and openly courts them and their wack-o conspiracy theories (QAnon, etc). It is an all or none.

I agree with equality, I think asking for a small and efficient government is what everyone wants, I'm not sure that is a reality with how big population wise and money wise the US is, and I also want to be safe and prosper.

Like you've said, the left and right are so close together. We need to purge the racist, sexist, bigoted bullcrap and actually talk about real issues. And Trump doesn't allow that. And my concern is that a lot of the right's leadership, such as Spencer Cox (who supports Trump and QAnon), Mike Lee, McConnel, Lindsey don't allow that. Again, when the people who represent a certain party are racist and bigots and sexist and people keep voting for them...maybe the problem isn't the narrative or the news or the left.
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I know you know taxes... I do as well. I had to explain to my wife that the reason we are doing well is not because of a Trump tax plan but because I've worked really hard and actually Trump screwed us CA residents with his limits on real estate tax deduction limits and a few other things. His tax changes catered to the wealthy/super wealthy when he claimed they were a win for the common man.

Most of my family (and most people in general) don't understand tax law/plans well enough to have an opinion... they just see Democrat and think taxes are going up and government is getting bigger. I don't think he's socialist. I'm cool with paying some extra tax and am fine with the wealthy paying more... most are not.

I honestly think some deck chairs are re-arranged but there won't be big changes... I just wanted someone in the office that warrants respect. Trump makes me feel icky... I still can't believe he became president.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
I know you know taxes... I do as well. I had to explain to my wife that the reason we are doing well is not because of a Trump tax plan but because I've worked really hard and actually Trump screwed us CA residents with his limits on real estate tax deduction limits and a few other things. His tax changes catered to the wealthy/super wealthy when he claimed they were a win for the common man.

Most of my family (and most people in general) don't understand tax law/plans well enough to have an opinion... they just see Democrat and think taxes are going up and government is getting bigger. I don't think he's socialist. I'm cool with paying some extra tax and am fine with the wealthy paying more... most are not.

I honestly think some deck chairs are re-arranged but there won't be big changes... I just wanted someone in the office that warrants respect. Trump makes me feel icky... I still can't believe he became president.
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Such a good point. The left has to figure out a way to get the right, non-crazy to listen to them. To listen to the tax plan. To understand that FOX News has admitted they straight up lie to drive ratings and realize that they can look outside of their bubble and really research things.

I see a TON of small town people who are paying 400-1600 a month in health insurance...that has $7,500 deductables...which means they pay $12,300 to $26,700 A YEAR BEFORE they really get any extensive benefit from their health insurance.

And yet those people think that raising everyone's taxes by $300 a month but having universal health coverage will cost them more money. When in reality, the cost is $3,600 a year in taxes vs $12,300-$26,700 in insurance premiums and deductables.

AND if they include themselves in the legislative process, they can get provisions put in that they want and would benefit them.

But no, universal healthcare iS SociALiSm and we can't have that. And this is just one issue of many that the left stands for that would help the right. Higher taxes on the rich so we can fund public universities like we did for our parents so they could get out of college realtively debt free. Biden's tax plan is a NO BRAINER. If everyone sat down, didn't know it was a Biden/lefty/socialist tax plan, 98% of us would look at it and be like, "why aren't we already doing this, this is just common sense."

There has to be a way to reach those people.
 
green said:
Such a good point. The left has to figure out a way to get the right, non-crazy to listen to them. To listen to the tax plan. To understand that FOX News has admitted they straight up lie to drive ratings and realize that they can look outside of their bubble and really research things.

I see a TON of small town people who are paying 400-1600 a month in health insurance...that has $7,500 deductables...which means they pay $12,300 to $26,700 A YEAR BEFORE they really get any extensive benefit from their health insurance.

And yet those people think that raising everyone's taxes by $300 a month but having universal health coverage will cost them more money. When in reality, the cost is $3,600 a year in taxes vs $12,300-$26,700 in insurance premiums and deductables.

AND if they include themselves in the legislative process, they can get provisions put in that they want and would benefit them.

But no, universal healthcare iS SociALiSm and we can't have that. And this is just one issue of many that the left stands for that would help the right. Higher taxes on the rich so we can fund public universities like we did for our parents so they could get out of college realtively debt free. Biden's tax plan is a NO BRAINER. If everyone sat down, didn't know it was a Biden/lefty/socialist tax plan, 98% of us would look at it and be like, "why aren't we already doing this, this is just common sense."

There has to be a way to reach those people.
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People cannot understand this concept, or they refuse to see it, or they are afraid of some nebulous risk if giving up "ma freedoms" which I hear a lot in these discussions. It's beyond ridiculous. But for this to work for real they also have to be prepared to regulate the medical industry to control costs overall. That's the harder hurdle to get over. With our country allowing fully for-profit medical operations to charge anything they want, since it's impossible to actually "shop" for medical care there is effectively zero competition, so they run as effective monopolies, the costs to the consumer are simply out of control compared to literally all other developed nations. Add to that the fact that we are currently subsidizing the rest of the world to provide pharmaceutical companies with obscene profits, and our system is just flat out broken. Until we have some level of cost regulation it won't matter if there is a universal insurance if that insurance still has to support the profit system of the medical companies.

But even in our current system with a single payer system it would greatly reduced overall cost to the consumer as well as provide at least basic insurance for everyone.

But we can't have that because dat socialism is da DEBIL!!!
 
Eenie-Meenie said:
Basically because they are ****ing ignorant. But please tell what's the problem with people in Utah who have jobs and are well off? I've never met so many airheads in my life than here in Utah (just look at the politicians that represent the state) -- pardon me, all Utahns on the board, as there are many well-informed, intelligent people here. Wish I could find them in the general public.
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Mormons are, in essence, a very collective breed. Once something takes root in a majority of Mormon culture it tends to proliferate, whether or not it makes sense (see BYU fandom, green jello with carrot shavings, and funeral potatoes as an example).

Affiliation with the Republican Party is something that somehow got entrenched in the Utah Mormon culture. And believe me... Mormons in Utah will justify just about anything if it means staying within the collective.

No offense to any Mormons in Utah - it’s speaking of a phenomenon within your culture, I am not condemning you personally.
 
leftyjace said:
Mormons are, in essence, a very collective breed. Once something takes root in a majority of Mormon culture it tends to proliferate, whether or not it makes sense (see BYU fandom, green jello with carrot shavings, and funeral potatoes as an example).

Affiliation with the Republican Party is something that somehow got entrenched in the Utah Mormon culture. And believe me... Mormons in Utah will justify just about anything if it means staying within the collective.

No offense to any Mormons in Utah - it’s speaking of a phenomenon within your culture, I am not condemning you personally.
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This is true... grew up in Utah and joined the church in my teens. The MLMs spreading through Utah and church members is a great example of this.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
Quick hitter... I do understand where you are coming from though. It is kind of insane when I talk with members of my wife's family about Trump and they are like "is he really that bad". Why yes, yes he is. And it likely is much worse than we've actually seen. They tend to blow off the things he says as him just running his mouth.
Its sad. So I know a lot of good people that voted for Trump and I think they are wrong. I couldn't put my name on his vote... I just couldn't. I understand why they did... kind of.
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I will be 100% honest. I don't have a problem with someone voting for trump. I know that probably sounds insincere knowing how much I hate trump but it's true. If you think he is the lesser of 2 evils or feel the country would be better off with him as president and reluctantly vote for him then I can simply agree to disagree and not have a problem with that person voting that way.
I only have a problem with people who think trump is a great candidate and awesome amazing person.

I would love an election where both candidates are pretty good decent people and feel totally ok about either person winning. Wouldn't that be nice?

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leftyjace said:
Mormons are, in essence, a very collective breed. Once something takes root in a majority of Mormon culture it tends to proliferate, whether or not it makes sense (see BYU fandom, green jello with carrot shavings, and funeral potatoes as an example).

Affiliation with the Republican Party is something that somehow got entrenched in the Utah Mormon culture. And believe me... Mormons in Utah will justify just about anything if it means staying within the collective.

No offense to any Mormons in Utah - it’s speaking of a phenomenon within your culture, I am not condemning you personally.
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While this is still true, I think it’s becoming less of an automatic. As the newest generations come of age, I’m seeing them become more progressive. My kids, while still young, are a little more left than I am. I’m a little more left of my parents. Don’t get me wrong, I still tend to lean more right than left, but not as much as generations before me. I am a die hard BYU fan and I love funeral potatoes, but I can’t stand jello with carrot shavings. I’m certainly not a Republican, but vote that way more than not (and certainly not in the last two presidential elections).


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Handlogten's Heros said:
I know you know taxes... I do as well. I had to explain to my wife that the reason we are doing well is not because of a Trump tax plan but because I've worked really hard and actually Trump screwed us CA residents with his limits on real estate tax deduction limits and a few other things. His tax changes catered to the wealthy/super wealthy when he claimed they were a win for the common man.

Most of my family (and most people in general) don't understand tax law/plans well enough to have an opinion... they just see Democrat and think taxes are going up and government is getting bigger. I don't think he's socialist. I'm cool with paying some extra tax and am fine with the wealthy paying more... most are not.

I honestly think some deck chairs are re-arranged but there won't be big changes... I just wanted someone in the office that warrants respect. Trump makes me feel icky... I still can't believe he became president.
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I struggle pretty badly financially but I would be willing to pay more in taxes if it meant that the hate, anxiety, depression, anger, etc that I'm seeing in our society were to go down a couple notches. And to be honest, I don't know that those things would go down at all with a different president. What I do know is that with Trump as president I have never seen the citizens in this country treat each other worse. Maybe we would be treating each other just as bad if trump wasn't president but I don't think so.

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fishonjazz said:
I struggle pretty badly financially but I would be willing to pay more in taxes if it meant that the hate, anxiety, depression, anger, etc that I'm seeing in our society were to go down a couple notches. And to be honest, I don't know that those things would go down at all with a different president. What I do know is that with Trump as president I have never seen the citizens in this country treat each other worse. Maybe we would be treating each other just as bad if trump wasn't president but I don't think so.

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Yeah, I don’t think that’s the answer. Trump doesn’t help matters, but he’s not the sole problem. The two party system is failing us.


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leftyjace said:
Mormons are, in essence, a very collective breed. Once something takes root in a majority of Mormon culture it tends to proliferate, whether or not it makes sense (see BYU fandom, green jello with carrot shavings, and funeral potatoes as an example).

Affiliation with the Republican Party is something that somehow got entrenched in the Utah Mormon culture. And believe me... Mormons in Utah will justify just about anything if it means staying within the collective.

No offense to any Mormons in Utah - it’s speaking of a phenomenon within your culture, I am not condemning you personally.
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Sorry but funeral potatoes are ****ing delicious.
 
Look, America is a big place with a lot of different opinions. We don't have to agree with them, but they're there.

And it's not a loss if the guy you were rooting for won - and Joe looks to be on the precipice of doing just that.
 
sirkickyass said:
I am considering moving to Ukraine. My faith in America as a good place full of good people is shot.
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Why? Isn't their democracy even weaker than ours? Oh wait, don't answer that actually...

I think that might be a good move until 2025 when Trump 2.0 (Don jr) takes office and teams up with a host of corrupt oligarchs pillage Ukraine (even more) than they've already done.
 
bigb said:
While this is still true, I think it’s becoming less of an automatic. As the newest generations come of age, I’m seeing them become more progressive. My kids, while still young, are a little more left than I am. I’m a little more left of my parents. Don’t get me wrong, I still tend to lean more right than left, but not as much as generations before me. I am a die hard BYU fan and I love funeral potatoes, but I can’t stand jello with carrot shavings. I’m certainly not a Republican, but vote that way more than not (and certainly not in the last two presidential elections).


Sent from my iPhone using JazzFanz mobile app
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Yeah, it really seems like there are two factions of mormons right now: the old and the young. And each have very different belief systems. It is very facinating to watch. That being said, I'm a firm believer that our kids are better than we are. That is a special generation. I'm proud of them and how they seem more interested in building bridges and working together than being right.

One of my favorite sayings is, "I don't want to be right, I want to get it right." And the young 'uns really seem like they are headed in a special direction. They gonna get us to some Star Trek type **** here in the next 100 years.
 
I think there's a lot to analyze here.

1. The segregation of our country. We've been polarizing our society since the mid 1960s. Even within states you see deep polarization.

2. At the same time we're seeing segregation in our country, we're seeing communities formed online that are nothing more than echo chambers for their preferred media and tribe. These echo chambers make one impervious to facts and radicalizes them. Qanon is a perfect example of this. People are creating their own communities online with its total effect on our democracy completely unknown.

3. The way we communicate, inform, and educate. The advent of the radio changed the way we communicated, were informed, and educated. The TV has had an even greater effect. No longer do we value information, only style. Remember how the NY Times reported that impeachment lacked the "Pizzazz" to hold our attention? TV media doesn't inform voters, but turns politics into a sport that is either won or lost. TV and social media is inhibiting the ways we communicate and retarding the way we think, articulate arguments, and otherwise make public discourse.

To borrow from the book, "Amusing ourselves to death" Orwell wrote about a society where information was carefully censored. The truth was kept from the masses. Huxley wrote about a society where information was flooded (most of it garbage) and the truth was indecipherable from fiction.

I think this is a real issue. After 4 years of this hell, million still think, "Hells yeah, I want 4 more years of this! Cry more lib!"

Perhaps we've reached the extent of liberal democracy? Perhaps we're actually on the long downslope towards oligarchy and authoritarianism? Have we ever thought about that? That our liberal democracy all the progress we've made, maybe gay marriage or the Civil Rights Act ( and the Great Society) was the pinnacle of what's possible for democracy in this county? Do societies ever known when their democracy has peaked and now backslide? Did Germany know back in 1932? Did Russia know back in the early 1990s? Will we? Western democracies all around appear to be backsliding, progress has halted. From the UK, to France, to the United States. Progress has halted in many of these democracies. Is this a speedbump or the start of something very sad?
 
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