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Lockout!!!

I thought this was a good article explaining the sort-of-proposed 50-50 split.
https://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/7063236/nba-labor-agents-meeting-discuss-move-lockout-sources-say

Commissioner David Stern said a small group of owners and players had broached a 50-50 split of basketball-related income on Tuesday, but were told by the players it would not be acceptable. But sources said the league really offered 49 percent, with the expectation the share would grow to 51 percent based on incentives -- and that the players offered a counterproposal of 51 percent, likely to grow to 53 percent, which the owners turned down.
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That seems somewhat encouraging, that they might only be 2 percent away from each other now. At least the "small group of owners and players" that were involved in that proposal.

But on the other hand, this seems pretty discouraging:

In a letter to the union membership Wednesday, Hunter and Fisher explained why they believed the idea of a 50-50 split was not acceptable.

"The overwhelming feeling was that the players are prepared to sacrifice and stand for what we believe is fair. The clear message we have received from the players, and the one we will heed, is not to back down," the letter, obtained by ESPN.com, read. "Yesterday, the owners gave us an opportunity to back down. We refused."
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If "compromise" has become synonymous with "back down", then we're in a bad situation.
 
....some highlights I coughed up: "the NBA league minimum salary puts a player into the nation’s highest tax bracket" "The owners are not a group trying to make a deal, that’s a group trying to steamroll the opposition. The owners know they have the leverage and they plan to use it." "It’s the owners that want to see how the players react when they miss a paycheck or two, so they will drag this out. The owners are trying to steamroll the union".

https://probasketballtalk.nbcsports...n-stern-owners-for-loss-of-nba-games/related/
 
https://espn.go.com/espn/commentary/story/_/page/thomas-111005/nba-player-etan-thomas-goes-minds-league-executives-lockout

Here is an article I found today on ESPN, a player commentary from Etan Thomas, currently with the Atlanta Hawks. The article made a few good points, but a few ridiculous ones as well. In the article, he is writing from the owners perspective, basically mocking everything they stand for.

#1- "The fans will always side with us (the owners) no matter what the facts are." This just isn't true. Plenty, if not the majority, of fans seem to be on the player's side this time around.

#2- "We know fans don't want to see their favorite teams broken up because of a strict hard cap." Absolutely not true. Plenty of fans would love a hard cap and would really like to see quality players evenly distributed throughout the league.

#3- "We haven't budged drastically from our original proposal because, quite frankly, we don't feel we have to. We're just going to sit back and wait for the players to self-destruct while we stick to our position." We'll, if any of these reports are true regarding the negotiations, the players first offer was 54%, and the owners was 46% ish. Last I heard, Stern asked players if they would go for a 50-50 split if he could "sell" it to the owners and the players left the negotiating table.

#4- "We know the system is just fine if we can properly run and manage our own teams. We know the general managers and presidents and all the people who actually make the decisions are the ones at fault, but we're going to point the finger at the players for accepting the contracts we give them." This one is just simply ridiculous. The first thing the players did when they came to the table was offer $100 million a year off current salaries. If you truly believe the system is fine, you wouldn't offer that right off the bat. No way the system is fine when you are losing $300 million (or less depending on your POV) a year. You can't cut into that by laying off a few employees and slashing salaries of people who make a tiny fraction of what the players do.

#5- "We know limiting the amount each team can pay its players has absolutely zero correlation to competitive balance." I really don't understand why I hear this so frequently. Let's just look at the NFL, NBA, and MLB. Which league has the most competitive balance? The NFL. Which is the only league with a hard cap and non-guaranteed salaries? The NFL. Now, which league has the least competitive balance? MLB. Which league has not salary cap or max-contract restrictions? MLB. The NBA is right in the middle of these two and needs to veer more towards the NFL model.


I'm usually in favor of players in these negotiations, but it's time for a seismic shift in the NBA's CBA. The players want something fair? How about something fair to the owners who are losing money? At least players are walking home with GUARANTEED millions in their bank accounts. The owners leave the table with continual losses and the only hope to turn a profit is to sell the team after it rises in value.
 
The owners played this perfectly.

Once the fans absorb the fact that the players walked away from a 50-50 BRI offer and the current state of limbo wears on; whatever support they had will erode considerably.
 
I still haven't been able to wrap my head around this idea that a model that has worked for years and years (because it's a revenue SPLIT, the players make a share of the income for better or for worse) suddenly has the league losing $300 million every year, with the worst year (according to owners) coming from a year where the league made record profits and where owners spent the least percentage of their income on players in years.

I would love to see these financial documents that the league is waving around but not showing anyone.
 
NUMBERICA said:
I still haven't been able to wrap my head around this idea that a model that has worked for years and years (because it's a revenue SPLIT, the players make a share of the income for better or for worse) suddenly has the league losing $300 million every year, with the worst year (according to owners) coming from a year where the league made record profits and where owners spent the least percentage of their income on players in years.

I would love to see these financial documents that the league is waving around but not showing anyone.
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Wow, so off base that I don't know where to start. First off, you claim that the league is suddenly losing money. No. The NBA has been informing the NBAPA for years that they are losing money and that they would be pushing strongly for changes in this CBA. This is why Billy Hunter has been "preparing" players for a lockout for the last two years.
Second, the league did not experience record profits this year. In fact, they didn't see ANY profits this year. They operated on a loss. Revenues were very high, possibly the highest every, but so were the expenses.
Third, "where owners spent the least percentage of their income on players in years." Ummm, the percentage has been identical since the last collective bargaining agreement in 2005. 57%. Every year. Hasn't changed.
Finally, the documents you claim the league is "waiving around but not showing anybody." They showed the players union, is that not enough? Why do you and the general public need to view these?

I'm not sure why so many people are still under the impression that the NBA didn't really lose a substantial amount of money last year. We can debate about whether the losses were 300 million or 100 million, but either way it's substantial. If it wasn't, the NBAPA wouldn't have offered concessions of $100 million a year right off the bat in negotiations.

Why is the system "broken?" Because 57% of revenue (different from profits Numberica) going to the players just doesn't work anymore. Costs are much higher for businesses today than there were 10 years ago. When costs rise, players salaries don't drop accordingly. But for every additional dollar the NBA makes, no matter the cost to generate that dollar, the players make 57 cents.

Basically, if it costs the NBA 50 cents to make $1 (the 50 cents going towards additional salaries, fuel, commissions, electricity, lawyers, etc.) then the NBA is going to lose 7 cents.
 
I'm not going to have an IGS engagement with you. So I'm just going to rattle off some stuff and hope you can follow.

57% is the base of the split. That is, the general, strived-for cut of the revenues. The amount paid out went below 57% for the first time in the last season (which means the lowest cut ever)*, and yet, even with revenues increasing EVERY SINGLE YEAR (as evidenced by the cap and MLE continuing to rise despite all of the doom and gloom the owners have been spewing for years), the league - allegedly - lost the most (or close to the most) money last year. Makes no sense.

The players union are the only people that have seen the documents (and I am skeptical even they have seen every team's ledgers), and we're in a ****ing lockout. Do you need it spelled out to you?

Why is it players fault that 43% of billions of dollars has been horribly mismanaged? 43% was fine for a really long time and when the last CBA was extended, the narrative is that the owners got a great deal.

In terms of assuring income for all teams, the issue really needs to start with revenue sharing. Even if you can assure Sacramento makes a buck, that doesn't mean the playing field is anymore even, it just means that the Knicks will make 5-10 times as much as them even if they have half the wins.

Nice tone, btw. I'm sorry if I offended your billionaire sensibilities.

*https://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/6764248/reports-nba-players-get-escrow-money-back-first-time
 
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AlaskanAssassin said:
Why is the system "broken?" Because 57% of revenue (different from profits Numberica) going to the players just doesn't work anymore.
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...darn right it doesn't work anymore! But not for the reasons you stated. It doesn't work anymore because they ain't paying these pathetic looking punks who can't run plays, can't make open jump shots, can't make free throws, refuse to listen to the coach, refuse to play defense and have a host of off court problems that range from drug use to populating the earth with illegitimate children, $200.000 per game! However, your post was excellent in explaining the financial repercussions of the current CBA!
 
Saying 57% doesn't work anymore is a little disingenuous IMO. 57% doesn't work right now, under the NBA's current revenue sharing model. It worked just fine a few years ago, and it could potentially work again in the future. In case you haven't noticed, AA, the United States has been experiencing a recession. I think it's fair to say the demand for NBA products (be it tickets, TV viewing, merchandise, whatever) is fairly inelastic, and when times are good, the owners are able to make money hand over fist (it's just that a lot of people are being squeezed pretty tight at the moment). For the owners to ask to be insulated during the down years, without making concessions for when times are better, while claiming economic hardship, is greedy and dishonest (again, just my opinion). I do, however, think the owners have the leverage, and will end up with an extremely favorable deal (50/50-ish), that, if it extends 10 years, will likely make them all a lot of money.
 
Don't know if anyone has posted this. The players are running out of time if they want to capitalize on the BRI. I never thought of this, but the players have until about mid December to hold out and then they have to raise the percentage to gain anything. If there is no season, any gains on BRI for the players will be negligible. At that point they are only fighting for some higher purpose or the nature of the system.

https://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/32334/the-player-salaries-lost-to-a-lockout
 
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https://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/32334/the-player-salaries-lost-to-a-lockout

Basically over the life of 6 year deal the difference between 50% and 53% BRI is about 800 million. If the players don't get a 53% BRI deal done before December 16th, then they would have made more money by taking the 50% BRI deal now.

I hope a lot players are reading this article. This is the best logic I have seen for the players taking the 50% BRI deal.

If they never get a 53% deal done and settle for 50% deal on Dec 16th, then they will have lost the 800 million.
 
Ever since the beginning this whole ordeal has been about Hunter trying to figure out how to play a losing hand. It's time for him to get what scraps he can and accept defeat.
 
I apologize for my tone Numberica. Sincerely. I've been frustrated because all I seem to read is how greedy the league is and how they are trying to "steal" from the little guy. Even though the little guy in this situation is a millionaire playing basketball for a living. I can't read someone's post that says the NBA made the MOST PROFITS EVER and not be a little frustrated. It's either a lie or someone is very misinformed. I'll try to respond to a couple of these, but in all reality, we know that some will favor the player's side, and others the owner's.

NUMBERICA said:
I'm not going to have an IGS engagement with you. So I'm just going to rattle off some stuff and hope you can follow.
Click to expand...

I actually don't know what an IGS engagement means. Tried looking it up and all I found was Instrument Guidance System.

NUMBERICA said:
57% is the base of the split. That is, the general, strived-for cut of the revenues. The amount paid out went below 57% for the first time in the last season (which means the lowest cut ever)*, and yet, even with revenues increasing EVERY SINGLE YEAR (as evidenced by the cap and MLE continuing to rise despite all of the doom and gloom the owners have been spewing for years), the league - allegedly - lost the most (or close to the most) money last year. Makes no sense.
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Hold on, did you read the article you posted? The initial salaries that went out fell below 57%, so the owners RETURNED escrow funds to the players to hit EXACTLY 57%. The player's "cut" as you put it, isn't finished until the escrow is disbursed. They received 57%, same as always. It's not the lowest cut ever, it's the same cut they get every year. It's GUARANTEED in the current (expired) CBA.

NUMBERICA said:
The players union are the only people that have seen the documents (and I am skeptical even they have seen every team's ledgers), and we're in a ****ing lockout. Do you need it spelled out to you?
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I don't think the Players Association would offer immediate concessions of $100 million a year if they didn't feel they fully understood the fiscal state of the NBA. But maybe your're right, they haven't received everything necessary and they blindly gave back 1/2 billion dollars out of the goodness of their hearts.

NUMBERICA said:
Why is it players fault that 43% of billions of dollars has been horribly mismanaged? 43% was fine for a really long time and when the last CBA was extended, the narrative is that the owners got a great deal.
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100% agree with you. The remaining 43% has probably been poorly managed. I don't think all of the losses need to come out of the players pockets, but a big chunk does. We can't start cutting the salaries of people who make $45,000 year and expect it to make a big difference. Maybe the owners should cut back on amenities the players receive. Have them fly coach. No more free meals in the locker room. Have them share hotel rooms. I'm sure the players would love that.

NUMBERICA said:
In terms of assuring income for all teams, the issue really needs to start with revenue sharing. Even if you can assure Sacramento makes a buck, that doesn't mean the playing field is anymore even, it just means that the Knicks will make 5-10 times as much as them even if they have half the wins.
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Revenue sharing does need to increase/improve. I agree. But it can't start there. You have to have a profit first for revenue sharing to help. Here is an example using only 3 teams for simplicity:

Jazz- $1 million in profits
Timberwolves-$7 million in losses
Knicks-$5 million in profits

If you, Numberica, can use revenue sharing to provide each of these 3 teams with a profit, then I think you should be the new NBA commissioner.
 
JJAS said:
Don't know if anyone has posted this. The players are running out of time if they want to capitalize on the BRI. I never thought of this, but the players have until about mid December to hold out and then they have to raise the percentage to gain anything. If there is no season, any gains on BRI for the players will be negligible. At that point they are only fighting for some higher purpose or the nature of the system.

https://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/32334/the-player-salaries-lost-to-a-lockout
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Good find. Rep.
 
I know one of the VP's in the Jazz and he said they expect games to be played before Christmas. The way the players burn through money, they wouldn't be able to live. He said a lot of players actually come and ask for advances on their paychecks.
 
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