Game Thread Apr 07, 2021 08:00PM MT: Jazz at Suns

[Handlogten's Heros]

You kinda have to give up something. Unless you have 3-4 great switch defenders and even then 1 of them has to be your center. Most teams also have guys that can kill you from 3.

I think the scheme is fine. When Oni plays you see him recover quicker than others. It's mostly an effort and mentality thing. Size matters but it's hard to play guys like Craig over Clarkson or Bogey. Just don't give up on the play after the initial screen like we do recently and it's days and nights. We don't have to lockdown teams with the offense we are supposed to have.

Deflections are getting on the same level as steals with how often it gets used now.

I get being more physical but it really has to come with defensive understanding. Like last night Mitchell was pushing and sticking to Booker and Booker just faked a screen and opened up Cam Johnson because Mitchell wasn't seeing anything else. Ingles needs to sag to contain. Clarkson can be feisty but gets easily shaken off etc.

I get the allure of playing multiple schemes but Raptors imploded this year trying to play the same way with Baynes, Siakam and Boucher at center.

I agree that you have to give something up... mid range makes the most sense... issue is when it becomes too easy and predictable imo. Which is where adding one disruptive perimeter defender to the mix could help.

I think the system works if executed well and with some better pieces. I think too many of our guys give up too much too easily and Rudy is a crutch/excuse. Its a bit mechanical at times and needs a chaos element that we don't seem to have. Ricky and Thabo were able to bring that... I wonder if we don't have the length to do that now. There are trade offs and generally I think you should choose offense over defense.

The other issue with the one system concept is that the non-Rudy centers seem to struggle with it. We honestly might be better off having a guy like Kelly Olynyk at the 5 and going all offense on that unit.

I understand why we didn't get Craig... he'd be more of a Niang replacement. We just need an injection of athleticism, physicality, length somewhere in the rotation.

I just think we have to be a little more well rounded or dynamic on the wing. Mike DM and JC are small guards... Niang and Bojan are unathletic shooting 4s, who aren't good enough on the glass at times. We play the same systems no matter who is in the game. There is just too much homogeny for me at times.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Maybe people will listen to you when you say this stuff? I predicted the broad outlines of last night’s outcomes (on the defensive end) from a mile away. Frustrating.

the results of the defense were actually pretty good last night. Mostly because Booker shot so bad.

With CP if he knows what you are going to do and you don't disrupt something then he will **** you up most of the time. Its the same issue I think we had with Denver... Jokic and Murray shot so well... in part because they were so damn comfortable and knew exactly where we'd be and what shots they'd get.

Its a conservative approach that works well in the regular season but won't be as effective in the playoffs unless it has some additional wrinkles. We need more disruption and less "bend but don't break". whether its personnel or scheme... we need just need it.

 

[framer]

the results of the defense were actually pretty good last night. Mostly because Booker shot so bad.

With CP if he knows what you are going to do and you don't disrupt something then he will **** you up most of the time. Its the same issue I think we had with Denver... Jokic and Murray shot so well... in part because they were so damn comfortable and knew exactly where we'd be and what shots they'd get.

Its a conservative approach that works well in the regular season but won't be as effective in the playoffs unless it has some additional wrinkles. We need more disruption and less "bend but don't break". whether its personnel or scheme... we need just need it.

Our defensive scheme was fine. It was our shooting 25% from three and 67% from the line that did us in. We aren't going to do that in very many games, especially at home. We do have ways to mix this up with our current personnel, especially in a playoff series. I wouldn't expect Snyder to roll those out in the regular season though, especially against teams we might face in the playoffs.

Bubble Playoffs aren't going to remotely resemble a rocking Vivint Arena.

 

[NAOS]

the results of the defense were actually pretty good last night. Mostly because Booker shot so bad.

With CP if he knows what you are going to do and you don't disrupt something then he will **** you up most of the time. Its the same issue I think we had with Denver... Jokic and Murray shot so well... in part because they were so damn comfortable and knew exactly where we'd be and what shots they'd get.

Its a conservative approach that works well in the regular season but won't be as effective in the playoffs unless it has some additional wrinkles. We need more disruption and less "bend but don't break". whether its personnel or scheme... we need just need it.

I definitely agree with almost 100% of this. But it seems there is some airspace between you and I when it comes to your first paragraph.

I don’t credit our defense for Booker’s stretches of poor shooting. Maybe I should go back and rewatch—if I were a committed analyst with time on my hands, then I would. Alas, no time available.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I definitely agree with almost 100% of this. But it seems there is some airspace between you and I when it comes to your first paragraph.

I don’t credit our defense for Booker’s stretches of poor shooting. Maybe I should go back and rewatch—if I were a committed analyst with time on my hands, then I would. Alas, no time available.

I don’t either but that’s why I said the results of the defense. ... not the actual defense. Both teams threw clunkers... their team threw a better one.

 

[NAOS]

Our defensive scheme was fine. It was our shooting 25% from three and 67% from the line that did us in. We aren't going to do that in very many games, especially at home. We do have ways to mix this up with our current personnel, especially in a playoff series. I wouldn't expect Snyder to roll those out in the regular season though, especially against teams we might face in the playoffs.

Bubble Playoffs aren't going to remotely resemble a rocking Vivint Arena.

The scheme wasn’t fine.

If you’re looking for a silver-lining, then—sure—you can point out that Snyder didn’t tip his hand on any potential playoff strategies. But to say that is also to admit that last night wasn’t good.... probably on a few levels. Things should be adjusted.

I have a hard time hearing people say, “Bros, we woulda won last night with better shooting... look how close it was!” because PHX also struggled to shoot; and a lot of that—imo—can’t be credited to our defense. They were just off. And just like I would expect us to shoot better next time, I would expect them to be better, too.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Our defensive scheme was fine. It was our shooting 25% from three and 67% from the line that did us in. We aren't going to do that in very many games, especially at home. We do have ways to mix this up with our current personnel, especially in a playoff series. I wouldn't expect Snyder to roll those out in the regular season though, especially against teams we might face in the playoffs.

Bubble Playoffs aren't going to remotely resemble a rocking Vivint Arena.

Hopefully. We need to maintain home court advantage so need to stay on top of this ****.

 

[fishonjazz]

The problem here is that we’re playing money ball. That’s not inherently wrong. You play the hand you’re dealt and hope to move forward. The problem with money ball is that it thrives in larger samples, but is very risky in small samples. The reason the house always wins is because they are placing drastically more bets than each guest individually, coupled with a very small advantage that’s not nearly as noticeable psychologically or in any given instance. That’s where we thrive. We will shoot our numbers.... over time. The playoffs are a small sample. When things clamp down, the calculus changes. It’s why we suck at rebounding despite our numbers, and I’ve been saying this for at least three seasons, so it’s not a new development. We can point to anomalies as to why games are won and lost, but each game will have anomalies, and any game that doesn’t itself will be an anomaly. Good teams find ways to win games. We’ve certainly done that this year. We’re not in first place for no reason. But, that said, the last two games we found ways to lose. We found ways to lose three games in a row against Denver. We had completely bested them that series. Then we found ways to lose.

We have shooting that should approximate our averages more in the future. But we’ve had a lot of games go the way of not being able to produce because we can’t throw it in the ocean. Do we remember the Houston series? We lost because we couldn’t hit a shot.m, with a non-shooting team. Unbelievably, I think we’re still capable of that in a playoff series, and if we blame it on flukes an anomalies, and that the money ball didn’t have a large enough sample to regress to the mean, well, it’s the playoffs... and your sample sizes are small. Ask the house how they’d feel if all their bets for a year got thrown into 7 scenarios. I’m certain they wouldn’t be going into that thinking the house always wins.

Helluva post.

We need more size and athleticism.

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[fishonjazz]

I think its time to finish the games with Ingles. We are also like 11 - 1 when Ingles starts so thats something.

I also think it's time that Bogie, Royce, Mitchell, and Clarkson remain confident in adversity like Ingles, Conley, and Gobert do. When we miss a few shots we get in our heads too often.

This

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[fishonjazz]

18 shots means it's still in the range of a statistical anomaly.

Ok.
I'm still going to stick with my thoughts that 2-18 is not good.

Your post did little to change my mind on that

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[framer]

The scheme wasn’t fine.

If you’re looking for a silver-lining, then—sure—you can point out that Snyder didn’t tip his hand on any potential playoff strategies. But to say that is also to admit that last night wasn’t good.... probably on a few levels. Things should be adjusted.

I have a hard time hearing people say, “Bros, we woulda won last night with better shooting... look how close it was!” because PHX also struggled to shoot; and a lot of that—imo—can’t be credited to our defense. They were just off. And just like I would expect us to shoot better next time, I would expect them to be better, too.

We win almost every time we play with just average or better shooting, generally by double digits.

Both Phoenix and Utah have great defenses, so yes, teams will shoot worse than they normally do when play either us or them. Phoenix shot closer to their averages than we did, especially in the first half. Their defense was not leaps and bounds better. It's just the way the ball bounced. Part of the problem was getting away from the pick and roll which seemed to be working every time it was tried. In the playoffs, I would just have expected ingles to get more of Clarkson's minutes which would probably have won us the game, TBH.

 

[fishonjazz]

Last night felt like a double loss... if I had an online gambling account I'd be betting against us tonight. Mike will surely sit... Portland has given us trouble... back end of a back to back in which we played overtime... we are six point favorites... that feels like free money.

Mike is sitting? Does that mean joe starts?
I think we are 9-1 in that scenario.

Are we at home?
I think we win

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[TheGoldStandard]

Mike is sitting? Does that mean joe starts?
I think we are 9-1 in that scenario.

Are we at home?
I think we win

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Hope so, I flew in for this one (and boy are my arms tired).

 

[cowhide]

Moral victories do not count in the W column. The regular season is to put up as many Ws you can get the best seed. Having homecourt where we have lost two games this year is important even though it does not guarantee anything but if you are playing the Nets, Sixers or the Bucks in the Finals you want homecourt. Same against most teams in the West. The problem last night is that if we have three of our shooters struggle then we can be beaten. Joe is not taking enough shots and our lack of size is going to a problem in the playoffs. I love Royce but he should not be a starter on a championship team. I thought the Jazz fought hard but you cannot miss that many shots and expect to win.

 

[Isaiah 1:13]

Not assessing blame here at all, but what has become of Jordan ‘Buckets’ Clarkson? Why no more Creating? When he was rolling, we could start out flat and JC would come in and throw some moves and right the ship. Now it’s mostly just catch and shoot or catch and pass. I don’t know, but I feel he has to be the microwave for us to succeed.

 

[Hekate]

I agree that you have to give something up... mid range makes the most sense... issue is when it becomes too easy and predictable imo. Which is where adding one disruptive perimeter defender to the mix could help.

I think the system works if executed well and with some better pieces. I think too many of our guys give up too much too easily and Rudy is a crutch/excuse. Its a bit mechanical at times and needs a chaos element that we don't seem to have. Ricky and Thabo were able to bring that... I wonder if we don't have the length to do that now. There are trade offs and generally I think you should choose offense over defense.

The other issue with the one system concept is that the non-Rudy centers seem to struggle with it. We honestly might be better off having a guy like Kelly Olynyk at the 5 and going all offense on that unit.

I understand why we didn't get Craig... he'd be more of a Niang replacement. We just need an injection of athleticism, physicality, length somewhere in the rotation.

I just think we have to be a little more well rounded or dynamic on the wing. Mike DM and JC are small guards... Niang and Bojan are unathletic shooting 4s, who aren't good enough on the glass at times. We play the same systems no matter who is in the game. There is just too much homogeny for me at times.

Predictability is an issue. I would love us the send out multiple coverages without sacrificing anything on the offensive end for stretches of the game but I don't think our defense through most of the game is a big problem. It's only in the clutch that we face problems we can't come back from and you can only play the clutch with the best players you have. Unfortunately, those players don't have the necessary capability to play multiple coverages.

I think a secondary center on defense, like when we started Favors, would help a ton because you don't have to worry about them being on the perimeter but it's hard to find that player who can also be a threat offensively like Bojan. Our needs may be more of a need for more rim protection when Rudy is on the perimeter. That would allow more zone and switching.