Jazz Offseason Plan

[LoPo]

To really buy Winslow he needed to grow off his age 22 season... he has been mostly hurt but has regressed so hard when he was healthy that I'd be shocked if he delivered on even 50% or his potential.

I agree. Definitely some concerns. But he's still young and I see him as a buy low candidate. He was really good for Miami for a few years. Even played PG.

In my opinion, he's worth a shot depending on the price.

 

[Miggs]

I'm one of the biggest Royce fans out there, but when he started with us at over 24 years of age, he was very, very rough. He got better defensively and much better offensively.

Frank is already a comparable on ball defender, but his offense needs work just like Royce's did. The good thing? - Frank is almost two years younger than Royce was when we started his development.

Royce can really rebound. Frankie can’t. Frankie can’t do much of anything on offense.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Royce can really rebound. Frankie can’t. Frankie can’t do much of anything on offense.

My thing with Frank is... does he know he's gotta be like Royce to be functional as a winning NBA player.

 

[Miggs]

My thing with Frank is... does he know he's gotta be like Royce to be functional as a winning NBA player.

Who knows? Have Gobert translate for him.

 

[LoPo]

Royce can really rebound. Frankie can’t. Frankie can’t do much of anything on offense.

I'm not saying Frank is Royce. I'm talking about offense. Royce was awful when we brought him in, but he got better over time. He became more comfortable. Frank is a better defender right now at 22 than Royce was at 24 when we started grooming his offense.

We need projects. At minimum or near minimum contract knowing he's a buddy of both Rudy's and Don's, Frank is clearly worth a shot.

 

[KqWIN]

My thing with Frank is... does he know he's gotta be like Royce to be functional as a winning NBA player.

Frank never came off to me as that kind of guy. He’s always been a very low volume player and one without much confidence. I get more Exum vibes from him. Like Exum, I don’t think Frank is unwilling to play a smaller role. They are just bad with high expectations from their draft position.

 

[LoPo]

Frank never came off to me as that kind of guy. He’s always been a very low volume player and one without much confidence. I get more Exum vibes from him. Like Exum, I don’t think Frank is unwilling to play a smaller role. They are just bad with high expectations from their draft position.

And playing in New York hasn't helped.

Frank just needs a chance to be comfortable. For France, he's good. Maybe out of the NY spotlight and expectations, he can excel with the support of Rudy and Don.

 

[KqWIN]

Mostly he creates offensive rebounding opportunities and development opportunities for other players...

The guy is never healthy and was so bad when he was. As a minimum guy sure... but I think we need calm down on the assessment. He's had one solid year that may have been a shooting fluke. He's one injury plagued year away from being Dante Exum. It wasn't just his shooting that was bad this year... it was like he forgot how to play basketball as well.

Winslow basically hasn't played in two years so I understand the concerns, but I have a soft spot for him and Stanley. It amazes me that neither guy could develop a shot because both seem to be very hard working, high character guys.

I think it's tough to not play and jump right in so I don't hold Winslow's MEM performance against him too much. I also don't think he was as terrible as you are saying when he was. His shooting, yeah I don't believe in it too much but his defense was awesome and he was a great hustle guy and decent ball handler. I always thought he was a smart basketball player too. "Elite" defender is more of a buzzword these days but I thought he was legitimately at that level. He may not be the next Igoudala like I thought, but if he can back to where he was I think he's an instant contributor.

For someone who claimed that Shaq Harrison was only below average in shooting I thought you would be receptive to Justise

 

[infection]

He’s not an easy no for me. He’s just not a rush out and sign this guy like Lopo is suggesting. He’s far too limited offensively. Look at Elfrid Payton’s assist numbers. His rebound numbers. 6.2 and 4.3 per game in just 28 minutes per game for his career. Add in the fact that he’s really good on defense. And actually shot 36% from 3 one year.

Yeah, Frankie is just 22 and shot 41% from 3 last year on a small sample size but he can’t run an offense. He doesn’t rebound…his offense is just bad.

I'd be over the moon with Payton.

 

[Miggs]

I'm not saying Frank is Royce. I'm talking about offense. Royce was awful when we brought him in, but he got better over time. He became more comfortable. Frank is a better defender right now at 22 than Royce was at 24 when we started grooming his offense.

We need projects. At minimum or near minimum contract knowing he's a buddy of both Rudy's and Don's, Frank is clearly worth a shot.

Listen, let’s say we lose Niang and somehow trade Favors and run it back with a core of:
Conley
Mitchell-Clarkson
O’Neale-Ingles
Bogdanovic
Gobert-Doke

That’s eight guys. We would need a real point guard imo. Caruso or someone of that ilk. If we’re going for a ring, I’d hope we also sign someone like Batum or Gay. That’s ten guys. Add in our pick. That’s 11. I’m REALLY hoping we buy a 2nd as well. I’d prefer that much more over Frankie. That’s 12 spots. So we’d have three left for whoever of our scrubs is guaranteed and anyone else. If there’s room for Frankie then cool. If not, oh well.

 

[infection]

If you were able to move Favors and then add a decent guy with the MLE/tax-payer MLE, then you could fill out the end of the roster with a couple guys that bring the nasty like RHJ and Payton instead of all the developmental guys. That'd be solid. Yeah, those guys don't shoot, but they wouldn't all play together and it wasn't like our developmental guys did anything to see the floor anyway.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Winslow basically hasn't played in two years so I understand the concerns, but I have a soft spot for him and Stanley. It amazes me that neither guy could develop a shot because both seem to be very hard working, high character guys.

I think it's tough to not play and jump right in so I don't hold Winslow's MEM performance against him too much. I also don't think he was as terrible as you are saying when he was. His shooting, yeah I don't believe in it too much but his defense was awesome and he was a great hustle guy and decent ball handler. I always thought he was a smart basketball player too. "Elite" defender is more of a buzzword these days but I thought he was legitimately at that level. He may not be the next Igoudala like I thought, but if he can back to where he was I think he's an instant contributor.

For someone who claimed that Shaq Harrison was only below average in shooting I thought you would be receptive to Justise

I watched a couple Winslow games and just look at the numbers... he was ****ing awful. On/Off splits confirm.

With Shaq I hoped his 38% year the year before was him trending up. He's a better free throw shooter too... honestly its probably a fair comp for where I think Winslow is out... except that Justise can't stay on the floor because of injury.

As a minimum flier I would take him for sure... but my hopes would be really low. If he stays on the floor and remembers how to play basketball it could really pay off... I like that he is kind of an ******* at times (his best highlight is stomping on Joel's mask). I just don't see him as this guy oozing with potential. To develop you have to stay healthy.

Side note - I hope we get a little smarter with flier contracts. If its a one year minimum try and get a team option or a small guarantee for year two. If you help the guy develop you should get a little more of the upside.

 

[KqWIN]

I watched a couple Winslow games and just look at the numbers... he was ****ing awful. On/Off splits confirm.

With Shaq I hoped his 38% year the year before was him trending up. He's a better free throw shooter too... honestly its probably a fair comp for where I think Winslow is out... except that Justise can't stay on the floor because of injury.

As a minimum flier I would take him for sure... but my hopes would be really low. If he stays on the floor and remembers how to play basketball it could really pay off... I like that he is kind of an ******* at times (his best highlight is stomping on Joel's mask). I just don't see him as this guy oozing with potential. To develop you have to stay healthy.

Side note - I hope we get a little smarter with flier contracts. If its a one year minimum try and get a team option or a small guarantee for year two. If you help the guy develop you should get a little more of the upside.

Shaq's floor game was horrendous and I still can't believe you thought sans shooting he was not below average offensively lol. That dude truly did not know how to play basketball and his horrific shooting at every level (college, G-League, NBA) did not give me hope that his shooting would turn average either.

I guess you're referring to "when he was healthy" as his short stint in Mem when I was more thinking about his time in MIA. I don't disagree that his play in MEM was awful but I don't think that is his new norm either. Like I said, it's tough to be out for so long and hit the ground running. He was a legitimately good player before the injuries but the injury concerns are definitely very real. If you don't like him for those concerns, I can't disagree. I also don't see him as a guy oozing with potential, I see him as a guy who simply needs to get back to where he was to be a really nice player.

I agree with your last point. I'm not sure if any of Frank, Winslow, or Stanley are willing to be trapped in a deal unless that deal is more than the minimum. I think they can easily find a guaranteed contract this year at the minimum despite their flaws. To get someone like that they have to have no other offers which is more of a Trent Forrest situation. They have to be unknown or very desperate.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Listen, let’s say we lose Niang and somehow trade Favors and run it back with a core of:
Conley
Mitchell-Clarkson
O’Neale-Ingles
Bogdanovic
Gobert-Doke

That’s eight guys. We would need a real point guard imo. Caruso or someone of that ilk. If we’re going for a ring, I’d hope we also sign someone like Batum or Gay. That’s ten guys. Add in our pick. That’s 11. I’m REALLY hoping we buy a 2nd as well. I’d prefer that much more over Frankie. That’s 12 spots. So we’d have three left for whoever of our scrubs is guaranteed and anyone else. If there’s room for Frankie then cool. If not, oh well.

People will be shocked at what Caruso gets this offseason. He's out of our range.

I agree with he general sentiment here... If you land Rudy Gay and move Favs for space you'd have a trade exception. I think Phoenix would be willing to trade Carter for nothing since they likely try to retain Payne and will look to cut a little salary. Jevon is a 10 minute a night guy and is a dog on defense. I think you need a third center in case Doke sucks but get a minimum guy like Dieng, Len, Hartenstein, Baynes. Roster is pretty much full at that point. I would like to get another vet to go with the prospects too... don't want a repeat of this year.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Shaq's floor game was horrendous and I still can't believe you thought sans shooting he was not below average offensively lol. That dude truly did not know how to play basketball and his horrific shooting at every level (college, G-League, NBA) did not give me hope that his shooting would turn average either.

I guess you're referring to "when he was healthy" as his short stint in Mem when I was more thinking about his time in MIA. I don't disagree that his play in MEM was awful but I don't think that is his new norm either. Like I said, it's tough to be out for so long and hit the ground running. He was a legitimately good player before the injuries but the injury concerns are definitely very real. If you don't like him for those concerns, I can't disagree. I also don't see him as a guy oozing with potential, I see him as a guy who simply needs to get back to where he was to be a really nice player.

I agree with your last point. I'm not sure if any of Frank, Winslow, or Stanley are willing to be trapped in a deal unless that deal is more than the minimum. I think they can easily find a guaranteed contract this year at the minimum despite their flaws. To get someone like that they have to have no other offers which is more of a Trent Forrest situation. They have to be unknown or very desperate.

The one quibble I have on the assessment of Shaq. I do not think he's a point guard at all... I would want to use him and Winslow the same way. He only got garbage time minutes here and was a pg with other guys who had no idea how to play either. I see Shaq as a wing that can bring the ball up a little if you need him too... not sure if that is how he sees himself. He should be used like Royce or Oni. Sit in the corner and shoot if you have to... offensive rebound and play some defense.

Winslow might be more into that role. While I don't think his time in Memphis is a new norm for him... I would weigh it really heavily. I also get the impression he isn't necessarily going to be thrilled with a Royce type of role either.

I think Stanley Johnson is a better bet but I also think he gets more than the minimum somewhere. He seems to have bought in to the 3 and D role now and he's been able to stay on the court. I could see a shooting bump from him making him a really solid player. He isn't the defender that Winslow was when Justise was at his best.

 

[infection]

Shaq's floor game was horrendous and I still can't believe you thought sans shooting he was not below average offensively lol. That dude truly did not know how to play basketball and his horrific shooting at every level (college, G-League, NBA) did not give me hope that his shooting would turn average either.

I guess you're referring to "when he was healthy" as his short stint in Mem when I was more thinking about his time in MIA. I don't disagree that his play in MEM was awful but I don't think that is his new norm either. Like I said, it's tough to be out for so long and hit the ground running. He was a legitimately good player before the injuries but the injury concerns are definitely very real. If you don't like him for those concerns, I can't disagree. I also don't see him as a guy oozing with potential, I see him as a guy who simply needs to get back to where he was to be a really nice player.

I agree with your last point. I'm not sure if any of Frank, Winslow, or Stanley are willing to be trapped in a deal unless that deal is more than the minimum. I think they can easily find a guaranteed contract this year at the minimum despite their flaws. To get someone like that they have to have no other offers which is more of a Trent Forrest situation. They have to be unknown or very desperate.

Wasn’t your argument that you thought we should get him, but that he was holding out for a better offer and we had no chance, or that the all-wise DL knew something we didn’t?

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Wasn’t your argument that you thought we should get him, but that he was holding out for a better offer and we had no chance, or that the all-wise DL knew something we didn’t?

There was an injury that people found out about. He broke his hand.

I just think part of his issue is he shouldn’t be a PG. Hes a wing imo and one that shouldn’t be handling much… attack some close outs or shoot when you are open. I think he’s a 10-15 minutes a night guy… had hoped he was maybe more than that but a hyperactive perimeter defender is still something we need.

 

[KqWIN]

Wasn’t your argument that you thought we should get him, but that he was holding out for a better offer and we had no chance, or that the all-wise DL knew something we didn’t?

I personally thought we should get him. What I was saying is that because he had no contract 30 teams were not meeting his needs (playing time, more money, years ect) and/or that there was info about him that the public wasn't aware of. Turns out he was injured and that effected his FA process and none of us knew that at the time.

 

[KqWIN]

The one quibble I have on the assessment of Shaq. I do not think he's a point guard at all... I would want to use him and Winslow the same way. He only got garbage time minutes here and was a pg with other guys who had no idea how to play either. I see Shaq as a wing that can bring the ball up a little if you need him too... not sure if that is how he sees himself. He should be used like Royce or Oni. Sit in the corner and shoot if you have to... offensive rebound and play some defense.

Winslow might be more into that role. While I don't think his time in Memphis is a new norm for him... I would weigh it really heavily. I also get the impression he isn't necessarily going to be thrilled with a Royce type of role either.

I think Stanley Johnson is a better bet but I also think he gets more than the minimum somewhere. He seems to have bought in to the 3 and D role now and he's been able to stay on the court. I could see a shooting bump from him making him a really solid player. He isn't the defender that Winslow was when Justise was at his best.

I don't think Justise will have attitude problems. For one, he might not be in the league if next year doesn't go well. He's also never been a large role player and has for the most part played like Royce his entire career. The only exception would be when MIA put the ball in his hands more and had him play "PG". But he's a high character, hard working guy who always played with a ton of effort. I would go as far as to say his physicality and toughness where his biggest strength and exceeded what Royce offers now in those areas. Don't think standing in the corner is a problem for him. Sticking to his role couldn't be less of a concern for me. It's his health and possible skill regression.

 

[KqWIN]

There was an injury that people found out about. He broke his hand.

I just think part of his issue is he shouldn’t be a PG. Hes a wing imo and one that shouldn’t be handling much… attack some close outs or shoot when you are open. I think he’s a 10-15 minutes a night guy… had hoped he was maybe more than that but a hyperactive perimeter defender is still something we need.

I wanted to sign him too, but I had no delusions that any part of his offensive game was average. He was VERY bad offensively but I thought he could contribute nonetheless.