Jazz Offseason Plan

[Handlogten's Heros]

I don't think Justise will have attitude problems. For one, he might not be in the league if next year doesn't go well. He's also never been a large role player and has for the most part played like Royce his entire career. The only exception would be when MIA put the ball in his hands more and had him play "PG". But he's a high character, hard working guy who always played with a ton of effort. I would go as far as to say his physicality and toughness where his biggest strength and exceeded what Royce offers now in those areas. Don't think standing in the corner is a problem for him. Sticking to his role couldn't be less of a concern for me. It's his health and possible skill regression.

That's all fair. I think he is someone that may get like a 3-5M deal from a cap space team and they make him give team option on a second year. If he was willing to take a minimum deal he's a great flier. I think he will have a lot of those offers (could be wrong but pedigree almost guarantees he gets like 2 or 3 more opportunities). We would almost have to give him the minimum and promise him a rotation spot. I'd want a vet option as well... Darius Miller is a guy I'd target in that case.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I wanted to sign him too, but I had no delusions that any part of his offensive game was average. He was VERY bad offensively but I thought he could contribute nonetheless.

I think if you use him like Torrey Craig he might be a bad offensive player but not hurt the offense. I know you know this but... Quin is too rigid at times and not sure he sees a guy like Shaq and thinks he can use him as a wing and replace some of Niang or Oni's minutes with him.

One of the things that stuck out to me this season was coaches using guys in different roles and seeing the success they had... Pretty wild how effective Thad Young was in a different role and how Bruce Brown went from perimeter player who can run a little point into weirdo roll man. Not saying Shaq is capable of something like that but I love when coaches find functional uses for semi-flawed players.

 

[Udidthizz]

Any interest in resigning Ersan as an end of the bench big if Favs gets traded?

 

[LoPo]

If we got Winslow for the full BAE of $3.7 for this coming year, I think it's fantastic business. If he works, what an asset. If he doesn't, we didn't pay too much.

I doubt that would happen, but we gotta try.

 

[KqWIN]

That's all fair. I think he is someone that may get like a 3-5M deal from a cap space team and they make him give team option on a second year. If he was willing to take a minimum deal he's a great flier. I think he will have a lot of those offers (could be wrong but pedigree almost guarantees he gets like 2 or 3 more opportunities). We would almost have to give him the minimum and promise him a rotation spot. I'd want a vet option as well... Darius Miller is a guy I'd target in that case.

Yeah...I think Justise has a big enough reputation around the league where he can get a good deal. Will be hard to get him on the minimum and I'd rather use our exception on a sure thing.

I think if you use him like Torrey Craig he might be a bad offensive player but not hurt the offense. I know you know this but... Quin is too rigid at times and not sure he sees a guy like Shaq and thinks he can use him as a wing and replace some of Niang or Oni's minutes with him.

One of the things that stuck out to me this season was coaches using guys in different roles and seeing the success they had... Pretty wild how effective Thad Young was in a different role and how Bruce Brown went from perimeter player who can run a little point into weirdo roll man. Not saying Shaq is capable of something like that but I love when coaches find functional uses for semi-flawed players.

I'm totally with you, fit and role is so important. One of the good things about Quin's rigid systems is that he asks for specific things and we should be able to take advantage of that and find a gem. I was scanning the league for guys who might fit and one guy that caught my eye is Denzel Valentine. He's going into his age 28 season, has had injuries, and has also never been good in his pro career. On the surface he looks like a scrub (and he probably is), but I kinda like some of the skills he offers. He is a better defender than you might think, he can make decisions with the ball, he rebounds fairly well, and he puts up 3's at a high volume.

He's probably still trash, but he has only played on a toxic team and if there was a team he could succeed on I think UTA would have to be it.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Yeah...I think Justise has a big enough reputation around the league where he can get a good deal. Will be hard to get him on the minimum and I'd rather use our exception on a sure thing.



I'm totally with you, fit and role is so important. One of the good things about Quin's rigid systems is that he asks for specific things and we should be able to take advantage of that and find a gem. I was scanning the league for guys who might fit and one guy that caught my eye is Denzel Valentine. He's going into his age 28 season, has had injuries, and has also never been good in his pro career. On the surface he looks like a scrub (and he probably is), but I kinda like some of the skills he offers. He is a better defender than you might think, he can make decisions with the ball, he rebounds fairly well, and he puts up 3's at a high volume.

He's probably still trash, but he has only played on a toxic team and if there was a team he could succeed on I think UTA would have to be it.

I liked him in the draft. He’s had moments when it looked like he was start to figure it out but overall he might just not be that good. At the minimum I’d take him for sure. Interesting option.

 

[SoberasHotRod]

If we got Winslow for the full BAE of $3.7 for this coming year, I think it's fantastic business. If he works, what an asset. If he doesn't, we didn't pay too much.

I doubt that would happen, but we gotta try.

I thought I read somewhere that if we are over the hard cap then we don't get the BAE?

 

[KqWIN]

I thought I read somewhere that if we are over the hard cap then we don't get the BAE?

Correct, you are hard capped if you use the BAE.

You can also only use it every two years, which is another fumble by the Jazz FO btw. They were a tax team last year, but not close to the apron. It would have been wise to use it then instead of having the BAE now when we knew the tax apron was going to be a problem with Conley.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Correct, you are hard capped if you use the BAE.

You can also only use it every two years, which is another fumble by the Jazz FO btw. They were a tax team last year, but not close to the apron. It would have been wise to use it then instead of having the BAE now when we knew the tax apron was going to be a problem with Conley.

The cap management last year was possible some of the dumbest **** that I never see discussed outside of Jazzfanz. It makes zero sense to dip your toes in the tax like we did if you are trying to win a title the next few years... you either duck it or use all the mechanisms you have to improve and go well into the tax.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Nabbing my guy Torrey Craig on a minimum or two year BAE would have helped this year and next.

 

[KqWIN]

The cap management last year was possible some of the dumbest **** that I never see discussed outside of Jazzfanz. It makes zero sense to dip your toes in the tax like we did if you are trying to win a title the next few years... you either duck it or use all the mechanisms you have to improve and go well into the tax.

Exactly!

The benefits of being a loose lipped FO is that the media has a more favorable view, that's what an exchange of information gets you. If the Kings did this everyone would be laughing at their incompetence but you don't hear a peep about the well respected Utah Jazz FO.

The Jazz should apologize for making me do all the mental gymnastics to find out how they were going to duck it like everyone assumed. Part of me still can't believe it because there's no way this should happen with paid professionals. My company scrutinizes my travel expenses more than this.

 

[infection]

The cap management last year was possible some of the dumbest **** that I never see discussed outside of Jazzfanz. It makes zero sense to dip your toes in the tax like we did if you are trying to win a title the next few years... you either duck it or use all the mechanisms you have to improve and go well into the tax.

I don’t think you understand. These people do this for a living and Ryan Smith is a billionaire for a reason. They wouldn’t do something that looks foolish without good reason. This one’s above our pay grade. Besides, the casual fan would have had us trade Mitchell for Lance Stephenson. Let’s focus on that.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Exactly!

The benefits of being a loose lipped FO is that the media has a more favorable view, that's what an exchange of information gets you. If the Kings did this everyone would be laughing at their incompetence but you don't hear a peep about the well respected Utah Jazz FO.

The Jazz should apologize for making me do all the mental gymnastics to find out how they were going to duck it like everyone assumed. Part of me still can't believe it because there's no way this should happen with paid professionals. My company scrutinizes my travel expenses more than this.

Truly amazing that they could not sneak $1-2M in the JC Favs conversations or weren't willing to pivot if Favs dug in. Could have also swapped 27 for a second rounder and been in pretty good shape... I'm going to go ahead and say Udoka would have still been there.

I think this is part of the reason DL and Friedman are gone.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

And if you are dabbling your damn toes into the tax... please keep the second you sold off to remove the $300k or whatever it was from Rayjon Tucker from the books.

 

[KqWIN]

Truly amazing that they could not sneak $1-2M in the JC Favs conversations or weren't willing to pivot if Favs dug in. Could have also swapped 27 for a second rounder and been in pretty good shape... I'm going to go ahead and say Udoka would have still been there.

I think this is part of the reason DL and Friedman are gone.

The nature of the off-season made it even worse IMO. In a typical year the draft and FA are far apart and I can see how things can maybe get out of order with timing. But with the condensed off season you know everything was happening at once. There was no excuse for not having your ducks in a row. The Jazz have never gotten a deal from their own. Everyone gets a premium deal from us...Exum, Burks, Favors, Ingles....everyone. Of course they could not ask Favors and Clarkson to take a combined $2M less even after giving them player options.

The amount of money these blunders could cost down the line is crazy. I'd love to be the guy who explains how much they saved by moving Tucker after how they paid for drafting Hughes.

PS: Don't let this distract you from the fact that the Jazz got out maneuvered by the Knicks on draft night. We got the guy we wanted in the end but that's because we over valued him and could have gotten him anyways. Where are the NBA twitter nerds shaming the Jazz FO over all of this?

 

[infection]

The nature of the off-season made it even worse IMO. In a typical year the draft and FA are far apart and I can see how things can maybe get out of order with timing. But with the condensed off season you know everything was happening at once. There was no excuse for not having your ducks in a row. The Jazz have never gotten a deal from their own. Everyone gets a premium deal from us...Exum, Burks, Favors, Ingles....everyone. Of course they could not ask Favors and Clarkson to take a combined $2M less even after giving them player options.

The amount of money these blunders could cost down the line is crazy. I'd love to be the guy who explains how much they saved by moving Tucker after how they paid for drafting Hughes.

PS: Don't let this distract you from the fact that the Jazz got out maneuvered by the Knicks on draft night. We got the guy we wanted in the end but that's because we over valued him and could have gotten him anyways. Where are the NBA twitter nerds shaming the Jazz FO over all of this?

When you have guys like Woj and other talking heads praising the FO, it’s contagious. You don’t want to be the stupid fan who knows better than the most respectable guys in the biz.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

The nature of the off-season made it even worse IMO. In a typical year the draft and FA are far apart and I can see how things can maybe get out of order with timing. But with the condensed off season you know everything was happening at once. There was no excuse for not having your ducks in a row. The Jazz have never gotten a deal from their own. Everyone gets a premium deal from us...Exum, Burks, Favors, Ingles....everyone. Of course they could not ask Favors and Clarkson to take a combined $2M less even after giving them player options.

The amount of money these blunders could cost down the line is crazy. I'd love to be the guy who explains how much they saved by moving Tucker after how they paid for drafting Hughes.

PS: Don't let this distract you from the fact that the Jazz got out maneuvered by the Knicks on draft night. We got the guy we wanted in the end but that's because we over valued him and could have gotten him anyways. Where are the NBA twitter nerds shaming the Jazz FO over all of this?

I didn't mind paying a small premium for JC... even though he may have only had MLE offers outside of Utah. Favs was just flat out silly. Just because you have the full MLE doesn't mean you have to give the full MLE. If you drafted Udoka doesn't that give you at least a smidge of leverage if you can't get a "premium" backup 5.

The other theory I have had is that they really didn't think that Conley was going to work out... so didn't see a huge salary crunch coming to keep things together.

 

[KqWIN]

I didn't mind paying a small premium for JC... even though he may have only had MLE offers outside of Utah. Favs was just flat out silly. Just because you have the full MLE doesn't mean you have to give the full MLE. If you drafted Udoka doesn't that give you at least a smidge of leverage if you can't get a "premium" backup 5.

The other theory I have had is that they really didn't think that Conley was going to work out... so didn't see a huge salary crunch coming to keep things together.

I do wonder if DL didn't care about tax implications because he knew he was on his way out...especially now that we know he was beefing with Quin. Daryl Morey 100% knew he was out of HOU and did not care about the damage he was doing before he left. Wouldn't surprise me if DL was indifferent to the future knowing he was not going to a part of it.

Smart teams tend to move all hell to avoid tax even if there aren't serious long term implications like we have.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I do wonder if DL didn't care about tax implications because he knew he was on his way out...especially now that we know he was beefing with Quin. Daryl Morey 100% knew he was out of HOU and did not care about the damage he was doing before he left. Wouldn't surprise me if DL was indifferent to the future knowing he was not going to a part of it.

Smart teams tend to move all hell to avoid tax even if there aren't serious long term implications like we have.

If that was the case and I was Ryan... I'd have cleaned the whole house then... JZ would be gone too. After the summer someone should have clued Ryan in to how bad that was. He shouldn't have had the keys during the season. Morey I believe was taking orders from Tillman and was indifferent. I wouldn't have DL up on the podium after the season talking about how "we will just have to see what Mike's market is".

I'm not super confident in JZ either... he came from the Milwaukee front office and those guys had several WTF moments last summer that showed they aren't exactly cap wizards.

 

[NAOS]

Stanley Johnson and Winslow are the defense first guys I would probably target at the minimum first before Frank. Those guys are probably even worse offensively but are more established defensively and can guard more positions.

I know I sound like a broken record at this point, but even if we surround Gobert with 4 all NBA defenders we are going to get crushed with Quin’s defensive principles. More than anything else we need him to get over his stubbornness and improve.

I keep saying this because there isn’t much room to make changes with the roster. All there really is to do is hope Conley wants to come back and that Ryan Smiths tolerance to pay tax is strong. Minimum guys aren’t going to save this team. We can’t be miles behind in strategy and that’s where we are with Quin. That’s where change and improvement has to happen.

So, with the room we have to maneuver, we need to acquire more established defenders.... but nvm it doesn’t reallllly matter emmk?