What if we would have not made the D-Will trade?

[Deleted member 848]

Wait, lets get some facts straight:

1: If we would drafted Davis last year instead of Hayward it would be only Millsap, AK, Big Al and Davis who could have played reasonable minutes at PF. Unless you count Okur but he did not play many minutes last season. Evans did some to but that was very little.
Obviously trade for Favors and New Jersey pick which turned into Kanter may not have happened in that scenario.

2.Incompetent? lol, I am judging by stats without homer glasses. You obviously think Hayward is some kind of a superstar waiting to happen - and sorry to burst your bubble but he is not.

3. Patterson played less time and had more pts and more rebounds then Hayward for your information!

4. What about Jordan Crawford? Gary Neal? Paul George? want to argue that Hayward did better then them as well? lol.... Hayward finished last season in 25th place among all rookies in efficiency rankings - not impressive at all! https://www.nba.com/statistics/play...GAME&qualified=N&yearsExp=0&splitDD=All Teams

Just friendly advice, before calling others incompetent take your homer glasses off first.

Hahaha.

a) Millsap, Okur, Al Jeff, Davis, and Evans. Evans averaged 10mpg last season, and almost all minutes were at the 4. Next season his minutes will most likely go up. Again, logjam. I have no idea why the hell you decided to omit Evans, as "insignificant" but whatever helps you try to win an argument, I guess...
b) So I guess drafting Hayward DID work in our benefit in the end, cuz we have two draft picks that will both most likely be MUCH better than the PFs that were selected after 9th in the 2010 NBA draft. Thanks for solidifying my point, greatly appreciated
b) please quote the post in which I said Hayward was "a superstar waiting to happen". Don't worry, I can wait. In fact, try and find a post of mine in any thread ever on Jazzfanz that has anything similar to that statement.

c) i)of course hell have more rebounds, he's a goddamn POWER FORWARD. Its just like me saying "Oh well Hayward has more assists!!1!!1", Its to be expected.
ii) lol, patrick patterson scored more points off of .2 less minutes. What you didn't include, is the fact that Hayward scored more points on average after the all-star break, with his ppg regressing as the season came to a close (despite the rockets being in the playoff race), with Gordon Hayward peaking at 16.8 ppg in the final month of the NBA.
d) OMG, efficiency ratings. Not gonna even reply to the absurdity of this remark, especially since you're comparing the efficiency of a guard to forwards.
e) Alright, lets compare::

Jordan Crawford: 38.4 FG%, shot 25.8% from 3 last year.....lol. Also played much more minutes than hayward especially after being traded to the wizards (averaged 31 with them). Great comparison champ.
Gary Neal: Pretty weird comparison, especially since he's a point guard, but hey what the hell. As a point guard averaging 21 mpg, Gary Neal averaged 1.2 dimes a game. Hayward averaged .1 less. Gordon Hayward also averaged more assists AS A SMALL FORWARD after the all-star break than Gary Neal did. Lets also remind ourselves that Gordon Hayward had both a greater FG% and a 3P% than Neal
Paul George: I am personally quite a serious fan, and I think it will be interesting to see who between Hayward and George ends up panning out as the better pick. As seen with most other comparisons, Hayward dominated George statistically on almost all accounts (assists, 3p%, FG%, PPG, TOs) with only George only rebounding better, after the all-star break. George also averaged more minutes over the season. So unfortunately for you, your bubble has been burst again.

And its funny, because in the end of the day, the only reason I ended up calling you out for your stupidity is because of this:

Why sudden love for Hayward? What has he done so far? Few good games at the end of the season when nothing mattered?? His rookie season stats are way worse then some other players drafted behind him like Ed Davis, L.Fields or P.Patterson for example...

Way worse?!?! Really? Its funny, because now you are arguing that all of the players are just simply a bit better. Your initial point was that the Hayward pick was metaphorical garbage compared to the slew of other players selected after him. Now we are quickly realizing that you are horribly wrong (even after you changed your point) and the most of us are right. Good talk though.

 

[LogGrad98]

Hahaha.

a) Millsap, Okur, Al Jeff, Davis, and Evans. Evans averaged 10mpg last season, and almost all minutes were at the 4. Next season his minutes will most likely go up. Again, logjam. I have no idea why the hell you decided to omit Evans, as "insignificant" but whatever helps you try to win an argument, I guess...
b) So I guess drafting Hayward DID work in our benefit in the end, cuz we have two draft picks that will both most likely be MUCH better than the PFs that were selected after 9th in the 2010 NBA draft. Thanks for solidifying my point, greatly appreciated
b) please quote the post in which I said Hayward was "a superstar waiting to happen". Don't worry, I can wait. In fact, try and find a post of mine in any thread ever on Jazzfanz that has anything similar to that statement.

c) i)of course hell have more rebounds, he's a goddamn POWER FORWARD. Its just like me saying "Oh well Hayward has more assists!!1!!1", Its to be expected.
ii) lol, patrick patterson scored more points off of .2 less minutes. What you didn't include, is the fact that Hayward scored more points on average after the all-star break, with his ppg regressing as the season came to a close (despite the rockets being in the playoff race), with Gordon Hayward peaking at 16.8 ppg in the final month of the NBA.
d) OMG, efficiency ratings. Not gonna even reply to the absurdity of this remark, especially since you're comparing the efficiency of a guard to forwards.
e) Alright, lets compare::

Jordan Crawford: 38.4 FG%, shot 25.8% from 3 last year.....lol. Also played much more minutes than hayward especially after being traded to the wizards (averaged 31 with them). Great comparison champ.
Gary Neal: Pretty weird comparison, especially since he's a point guard, but hey what the hell. As a point guard averaging 21 mpg, Gary Neal averaged 1.2 dimes a game. Hayward averaged .1 less. Gordon Hayward also averaged more assists AS A SMALL FORWARD after the all-star break than Gary Neal did. Lets also remind ourselves that Gordon Hayward had both a greater FG% and a 3P% than Neal
Paul George: I am personally quite a serious fan, and I think it will be interesting to see who between Hayward and George ends up panning out as the better pick. As seen with most other comparisons, Hayward dominated George statistically on almost all accounts (assists, 3p%, FG%, PPG, TOs) with only George only rebounding better, after the all-star break. George also averaged more minutes over the season. So unfortunately for you, your bubble has been burst again.

And its funny, because in the end of the day, the only reason I ended up calling you out for your stupidity is because of this:




Way worse?!?! Really? Its funny, because now you are arguing that all of the players are just simply a bit better. Your initial point was that the Hayward pick was metaphorical garbage compared to the slew of other players selected after him. Now we are quickly realizing that you are horribly wrong (even after you changed your point) and the most of us are right. Good talk though.

Game. Set. Match.

 

[Stifle Tower]

Game. Set. Match.

Yep.
I don't want to look it up; it's late. But didn't Honzward have the BEST 3 pt FG% in the league after the break? Was it also just a coincidence that his tormentor, Deron Williams, had been traded? Remember the early season public abuse Gordon took for running a play wrong? Many of us were calling "bust" after the first 3 months, then Gordon found his groove. What is perhaps most encouraging is Hayward looks like he can play 2 positions. And not like CJ or Ronnie Brewer could play SG/SF. Hayward looks like he'll legitimately be able to match up against most SF's (and if Utah runs into a bigger, stronger one...well, that's when Millsap takes over at the 3). And, much to my surprise, Gordon also looks like he may very well be quick enough to go up against most SG's.

Oh yeah, and we should also take age into considerartion. Out of all the players cited by AKMVP, Hayward is 1-2 years younger. Yes, Utah drafted a very raw player in Hayward. KOC also traded for an even YOUNGER guy in Favors. I think Utah was counting on these players taking some time to develop.

By the way, AKMVP, way back in 2001, the Jazz brought aboard a young 20 yr. old rookie. He played 26 mins/per and averaged 10.7 pts on 45% shooting (and a HORRID 25% from 3-pt range). Hayward shot nearly 4 % higher overall and almost double from 3 pt range of that rookie we had 10 years ago. Care to guess who that was?

 

[Craig K. Manscill]

Some things aren't meant to be forever. When the tide came in, DWill decided he wanted out. The Sloan feud was the straw that broken the haystack, splintering our team into factions, one never to return.

I can see why you have that opinion, Matt, but my point here is that if O'Conner DID draft those players, we would have never found ourselves in this situation. We would be in different territory, and maybe this topic would never have been created. It would be a different time, a different place. Sometimes I wonder what it's like being underground, but then, the sunlight would have traveled there anyway I'm sure. What, water? Does that not work?

- Craig

 

[MVP]

Hahaha.

Way worse?!?! Really? Its funny, because now you are arguing that all of the players are just simply a bit better. Your initial point was that the Hayward pick was metaphorical garbage compared to the slew of other players selected after him. Now we are quickly realizing that you are horribly wrong (even after you changed your point) and the most of us are right. Good talk though.

Dude, you completely ignoring first half of the season where Hayward plain sucked. It is not about how he played after all star break when nothing mattered and he got minutes due to injuries to other players on the roster - we talk about all season. Otherwise we can look at CJ scoring 40 pts one game and proclaim him next Kobe.
And I am not saying he is a bust, I said jury is still out on Hayward as his first season was not impressive at all and there were numerous rookies drafted after him who had better stats. Argue all you want about it but it is simple fact.

 

[Deleted member 848]

Dude, you completely ignoring first half of the season where Hayward plain sucked. It is not about how he played after all star break when nothing mattered and he got minutes due to injuries to other players on the roster - we talk about all season. Otherwise we can look at CJ scoring 40 pts one game and proclaim him next Kobe.
And I am not saying he is a bust, I said jury is still out on Hayward as his first season was not impressive at all and there were numerous rookies drafted after him who had better stats. Argue all you want about it but it is simple fact.

So you're comparing the undeniable progress of the last 2-3 months of a rookie's season, to CJs one game, and youre saying its the same thing?? ITS TO BE EXPECTED for the first few months of a rookies season to suck, ESPECIALLY when hes getting **** all for minutes. We DONT talk about "all-season" when its a rookie's season; if you had any remnance of bias-free cognitive function, you would realize that if a rookie starts performing much better once he is given much more minutes towards the end of the season, it is seriously meaningful. Comparing this to CJs one game is utterly idiotic. And please explain to me how the last 2 months of NBA basketball are "meaningless", I am very curious to read your response.

 

[MVP]

ITS TO BE EXPECTED for the first few months of a rookies season to suck, ESPECIALLY when hes getting **** all for minutes.
And please explain to me how the last 2 months of NBA basketball are "meaningless", I am very curious to read your response.

He had games with good minutes in first half of the season and he sucked - 28min vs 76.rs, 4pts, 5TO for example
Take away last 10 games where he got his nice stats when Jazz were out of playoffs and nothing really mattered and see what stats you get for rest of the season.
Talk to me after he plays well in the games that matter.

 

[Deleted member 848]

He had games with good minutes in first half of the season and he sucked - 28min vs 76.rs, 4pts, 5TO for example
Take away last 10 games where he got his nice stats when Jazz were out of playoffs and nothing really mattered and see what stats you get for rest of the season.
Talk to me after he plays well in the games that matter.

There are 23 games after the all-star break, not ten. The stats I have been using include 13 other games before the period in which you think that "doesnt matter" so my data still holds, and your points are proven foolish yet again. Also, the Jazz were 36-36 with ten games left in the season, a playoff berth was still possible. Also, out of the final ten games, only 2 of the teams were out of the playoff picture, with he 8 others all trying to fight for the best possible seed (Lakers, Hornets, Trailblazers, Nuggets, etc.) So they do all matter; Im not sure why you think that they dont. You cant tell me that the Lakers weren't motivated to win when we beat them 86-85 at the staples center.

Here is what it comes down to. Most of the posters here unanimously agree that Gordon Hayward improved tremendously, with even coach Phil Jackson and Kobe Bryant touting him as having a very bright future in this league, with Bryant even saying that he think Hayward will become a Jeff Hornacek who can put the ball down better. So not only does this entire forum disagree with you, but the Zen Master and one of the most talented basketball players of the decade is siding with us as well. The games that Hayward did well in, were not as a result of teams not playing their starters, not showing the will to win, other characteristics that would deem a performance less impressive. His performances were against teams trying to get the bets possible playoff seed, with all of their starters playing >30 minutes and still not managing to shut down Gordon Hayward. Rookies showing improvement at the end of the season, and then continuing to improve onto the next season is no strange ocurrence. Wesley Matthews improved after the allstar break, and continued his momentum into next season.. Same with Deron Williams. Same with Derrick Favors. Same with almost all good players who started their season with limited minutes, only to improve once their minutes were finally increased

The only reason you could deny any of this, is to try and win this argument for some stupid reason. The fact that youre trying to pull anything out of your *** to take away an amazing improvement from one of our future cornerstones of the franchise for self-pride reasons is completely pathetic and unsubstantiated; you might as well have your fan-card revoked. Just give up already; you lost this argument a long time ago when you said drafting Gordon Hayward really wasnt that wise, seeing as there were "much better" players selected after him. Now you're just beating around the bush, and the longer you do it the more foolish you become.

 

[MVP]

T
The only reason you could deny any of this, is to try and win this argument for some stupid reason. The fact that youre trying to pull anything out of your *** to take away an amazing improvement from one of our future cornerstones of the franchise for self-pride reasons is completely pathetic and unsubstantiated; you might as well have your fan-card revoked. Just give up already; you lost this argument a long time ago when you said drafting Gordon Hayward really wasnt that wise, seeing as there were "much better" players selected after him. Now you're just beating around the bush, and the longer you do it the more foolish you become.

Who are you kidding? Cornerstone of franchise? LMAO...role players are never cornerstone of franchises, and Hayward will never be more then that. Amazing improvement? Few games in double figures at the end of losing season??? Check out Samardo Samuels or whatever his name is from Cleveland, he played "amazingly" well at the end of the season as well but nobody on Cavs boards proclaiming him "cornerstone of the franchise"...Whatever - you are even worse homer then I thought. There is really no point in talking to you as you obviously can't look at the player without your Jazz glasses on.
I do not care about winning some kind of argument by the way, I have my opinion about O'Connor's drafting ability and it is not going to change.
And as I said it is to early to tell if Hayward was the best pick for the Jazz - I do not think so, you can have your own opinion, it does not mean that you are right.
And saying that all forum unanimously agrees with you is a bit of the stretch don't you think so?

 

[Deleted member 848]

Who are you kidding? Cornerstone of franchise? LMAO...role players are never cornerstone of franchises, and Hayward will never be more then that. Amazing improvement? Few games in double figures at the end of losing season??? Check out Samardo Samuels or whatever his name is from Cleveland, he played "amazingly" well at the end of the season as well but nobody on Cavs boards proclaiming him "cornerstone of the franchise"...Whatever - you are even worse homer then I thought. There is really no point in talking to you as you obviously can't look at the player without your Jazz glasses on.
I do not care about winning some kind of argument by the way, I have my opinion about O'Connor's drafting ability and it is not going to change.
And as I said it is to early to tell if Hayward was the best pick for the Jazz - I do not think so, you can have your own opinion, it does not mean that you are right.
And saying that all forum unanimously agrees with you is a bit of the stretch don't you think so?

"Few games in double figures"? Thats absolutely all that improved? Lol, why on earth am I arguing with you.


PS: I enjoy how you chronically only quote, and reply to 25% of my posts, ignoring the rest of the information that you simply have no response to; another sign that you really don't know what the hell you're talking about, and your pre-formed opinion of KOC (that you said yourself wouldn't change) is a textbook example of confirmation-bias. You are making me hope that the Jazz don't resign AK after the lockout, just so you and your 4 functioning brain cells can tag along with AK to a Phoenix Suns forum or wtv. And no, I think that Gordon Hayward was an absolutely stellar pick at 9th at all- in fact, the only poster I can think of that would disagree with this is KOC_BEGONE, who's coincidentally another one of the most impotent posters on this forum. The similarities between you and him are striking.

 

[MVP]

PS: I enjoy how you chronically only quote, and reply to 25% of my posts, ignoring the rest of the information that you simply have no response to; another sign that you really don't know what the hell you're talking about

just so you and your 4 functioning brain cells can tag along

who's coincidentally another one of the most impotent posters on this forum.

I see you like to insult other posters about their mental ability even if I did not say anything personal to you except that you are a bad homer. So if you want to keep insulting my mental ability, or my basketball knowledge, ( even if you are the one who had no clue who drafted AK ) go ahead, I have thick skin.

Reason I do not quote other of your crap is that there is not a single reason I would need to quote the absurd homerism (based on games after all star break ) you posting. I get it - you like Hayward and think O'Connor did "stellar" job at drafting him... Fine, I guess just time will tell if you are right or wrong. Just doesn't mean you need to push your biased excitement about him after few good games as the only right thing to other people and call them names ok?

 

[Dr. Jones]

time will tell

Awwwweesssommmeee!! Let time tell. See you back here in, what, 3 years?????

 

[MVP]

Let time tell. See you back here in, what, 3 years?????

You might be on to something. That's how long average O'Connor first round pick lasts with the Jazz

 

[Stifle Tower]

He had games with good minutes in first half of the season and he sucked - 28min vs 76.rs, 4pts, 5TO for example
Take away last 10 games where he got his nice stats when Jazz were out of playoffs and nothing really mattered and see what stats you get for rest of the season.
Talk to me after he plays well in the games that matter.

So how do you explain AK's first year stats with the Jazz? He had a helluva lot more playing time in Europe than did Hayward in college and sucked, on average, the whole season (as mentioned in my previous post, 45%/25% shooting). Hayward, even after his miserable start, ended up shooting 49%/47%. Hmmm, I guess rookies should be evaluated solely on their first 3 months in the league. Everything after that is meaningless. Obviously, AK NEVER improved from his first season and we can expect that Gordon has already reached his ceiling. The last half of the season was a complete aberration; his shooting will most certainlty drop to Ronnie Price levels once play resumes.

 

[MVP]

So how do you explain AK's first year stats with the Jazz? He had a helluva lot more playing time in Europe than did Hayward in college and sucked, on average, the whole season (as mentioned in my previous post, 45%/25% shooting). .

Sucked? Crazy how people forget things... at that time all Jazz fans were posting that he is most exciting rookie Jazz ever had, nobody was saying anything about sucking.
Even that average FG% did not prevented him from being selected to All NBA rookie team. Why you so focused on AK's shooting FG anyway? Like he was expected to be a shooter? He did numerous other things great, like defense and rebounding - for example he had more steals in his first season then Stockton in his rookie year. By the way you know what Stockton's 3%fg were first 3 years? 18.2%, 13.3%, 17.9%... so AK actually was doing way better then John in his rookie year when it comes to 3pt shooting
There is obviously good chance Hayward will improve, and he should - otherwise it would be really disasterous pick... but how high is his ceiling? All-star? No way in my book. I do not think he will be any more then poor man's Harpring with slightly better passing and worse rebounding.

 

[LogGrad98]

Just from what we have seen so far, I would place Hayward's range of potential like this (of course true worst case is out of the league and true best case is the next LeBron, neither of which are very likely):

Likely Worst Case - A more athletic Harpring with better ball handling skills, 1 step above current CJ
Likely Best Case - A more athletic, taller Hornacek with better defensive skills

I think he has a fairly narrow band, potentially-speaking. I don't see him becoming the next LeBron, for example, but I can see him as a solid borderline All-star, more than solid contributor, 2nd or 3rd option on a solid winning team. On the other end, I don't really see him bottoming out completely either, so my guess would be a contributor, bench energy guy on a solid winning team as the worst case.

Of course, if the NBA is done for the next 4 or 5 years, then none of this means **** really.