Trade deadline discussion

[Jingled]

Crazy informative stat there. The defense is decent but not good enough when we are chucking.

I have seen Jordan reinvent himself. He is passing more. Driving more. And its bringing his shooting back up so that may be the difference but if not... eeek.

He is passing a bit more which is good to see but so far it's not bringing his shooting up at all.

 

[NAOS]

He is passing a bit more which is good to see but so far it's not bringing his shooting up at all.

Historically, his best moments are when he has very few thoughts and is playing free. But any kind of reinvention requires more thoughts. The hope would be that he’s able to establish a new style and get back to thoughtlessness WITHIN THAT STYLE.

I have so many analogies to golf springing to my mind:
At most, I think you can have two swing-thoughts. More than that, and you’re likely to get rigid and start sucking. But some golfers can literally have zero swing-thoughts. Clarkson might be that kind of dude.

 

[The Jazz Wonderbra]

If the reports are true that Reddish is available for a first I’d be all over that. Kid is just scratching the surface and is a functional 3 and D guy now. I doubt the reports are true otherwise I’d have thought a team would jump at that.

If true, then it would be a complete NO BRAINER... I mean, we want to win a championship so we need to get some flexibility and depth.

The problem is that if we used a future 1st and a player or two not in our current rotation... would it matter? I mean, Quin doesn't believe in anyone beyond the top 8 who he trusts completely regardless of their faults. Forest he plays when he is in a complete bind. Paschall entered in the Spurs game and played all of about 20 seconds before Quin looked pissed, benched him, and played the starters again. Paschall and the entire bench looked floored knowing that they are never going to see the court because they make 1 mistake. Common. We have all seen a zillion mistakes from the rotation players but the bench has no wiggle room. If we had Cam Reddish would it be any different?

Meanwhile, we talk about the importance of health in the playoffs but we play our starters more minutes than most teams in the league. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. Remember Donovan holding his back and talking about how he is getting old? OVERUSE. Remember how burnt out we were in the playoffs last year? OVERUSE. And the covid 10 day contracts with no time to understand their team's systems are coming in and giving us fits.

Quin needs to get covid and be on 10 days rest while a different coach shows us what they can do in his absence using our bench a bit.

OR

The Jazz need to all get Omicron and we need to rely on depth for a week or two.

 

[SoberasHotRod]

If true, then it would be a complete NO BRAINER... I mean, we want to win a championship so we need to get some flexibility and depth.

The problem is that if we used a future 1st and a player or two not in our current rotation... would it matter? I mean, Quin doesn't believe in anyone beyond the top 8 who he trusts completely regardless of their faults. Forest he plays when he is in a complete bind. Paschall entered in the Spurs game and played all of about 20 seconds before Quin looked pissed, benched him, and played the starters again. Paschall and the entire bench looked floored knowing that they are never going to see the court because they make 1 mistake. Common. We have all seen a zillion mistakes from the rotation players but the bench has no wiggle room. If we had Cam Reddish would it be any different?

Meanwhile, we talk about the importance of health in the playoffs but we play our starters more minutes than most teams in the league. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. Remember Donovan holding his back and talking about how he is getting old? OVERUSE. Remember how burnt out we were in the playoffs last year? OVERUSE. And the covid 10 day contracts with no time to understand their team's systems are coming in and giving us fits.

Quin needs to get covid and be on 10 days rest while a different coach shows us what they can do in his absence using our bench a bit.

OR

The Jazz need to all get Omicron and we need to rely on depth for a week or two.

I don't believe this is true that Quin plays his stars more than other teams. A quick check on NBA.com reveals that our top mpg player is Donovan who is 55th in the league in mpg. Rudy Gobert is 77th.

 

[jom2003]

If true, then it would be a complete NO BRAINER... I mean, we want to win a championship so we need to get some flexibility and depth.

The problem is that if we used a future 1st and a player or two not in our current rotation... would it matter? I mean, Quin doesn't believe in anyone beyond the top 8 who he trusts completely regardless of their faults. Forest he plays when he is in a complete bind. Paschall entered in the Spurs game and played all of about 20 seconds before Quin looked pissed, benched him, and played the starters again. Paschall and the entire bench looked floored knowing that they are never going to see the court because they make 1 mistake. Common. We have all seen a zillion mistakes from the rotation players but the bench has no wiggle room. If we had Cam Reddish would it be any different?

Meanwhile, we talk about the importance of health in the playoffs but we play our starters more minutes than most teams in the league. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. Remember Donovan holding his back and talking about how he is getting old? OVERUSE. Remember how burnt out we were in the playoffs last year? OVERUSE. And the covid 10 day contracts with no time to understand their team's systems are coming in and giving us fits.

Quin needs to get covid and be on 10 days rest while a different coach shows us what they can do in his absence using our bench a bit.

OR

The Jazz need to all get Omicron and we need to rely on depth for a week or two.

That's actually pretty interesting. Like starting Doke, Oni, Hughes, Forrest and Butler with starters in protocol. Wonder how they would do.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

If true, then it would be a complete NO BRAINER... I mean, we want to win a championship so we need to get some flexibility and depth.

The problem is that if we used a future 1st and a player or two not in our current rotation... would it matter? I mean, Quin doesn't believe in anyone beyond the top 8 who he trusts completely regardless of their faults. Forest he plays when he is in a complete bind. Paschall entered in the Spurs game and played all of about 20 seconds before Quin looked pissed, benched him, and played the starters again. Paschall and the entire bench looked floored knowing that they are never going to see the court because they make 1 mistake. Common. We have all seen a zillion mistakes from the rotation players but the bench has no wiggle room. If we had Cam Reddish would it be any different?

Meanwhile, we talk about the importance of health in the playoffs but we play our starters more minutes than most teams in the league. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. Remember Donovan holding his back and talking about how he is getting old? OVERUSE. Remember how burnt out we were in the playoffs last year? OVERUSE. And the covid 10 day contracts with no time to understand their team's systems are coming in and giving us fits.

Quin needs to get covid and be on 10 days rest while a different coach shows us what they can do in his absence using our bench a bit.

OR

The Jazz need to all get Omicron and we need to rely on depth for a week or two.

The minutes for our starters are fine. I don't know if Quin could live with Cam or any young players mistakes, but I could see Ainge having some long term perspective to go with the short term goals. I think the price is higher (it is certainly trending that way if Reddish continues to play like he did last night).

Part of the reason you play Butler over Forrest is because the difference in functionality is likely to be almost zero... Butler becomes a solid asset if he plays okay or has a couple good nights. It also helps him build toward the bigger role next year. Bane was as ready as Butler but needed some rotation minutes to build a solid base... then he has a great summer and now he shines. I realize that winning is the priority, but it makes likely no difference if Butler gets Forrest's minutes. So building up the program is another priority. Those two things don't have to work against each other.

Conley is the big guy as far as minute management... Joe too but he may already be spent and not as effective in the playoffs. I'd like to see Donovan and Rudy get a few nights off as well... Rudy Gay should be on the Conley program (especially since Paschall is our most functional non-rotation player). The overall minute load is just fine... getting a few extra nights off will be a huge benefit though.

 

[jom2003]

I don't believe this is true that Quin plays his stars more than other teams. A quick check on NBA.com reveals that our top mpg player is Donovan who is 55th in the league in mpg. Rudy Gobert is 77th.

And 8 man rotation is actually quite standard in this league. Lot of good players, I mean actual proven vets, are not getting any minutes from their coach, then came in and drop crazy numbers when teams were plagued with covid, making people wonder why they weren't getting minutes earlier. I can't really say the same thing about Oni, Hughes or Doke. Paschall maybe

 

[jom2003]

The minutes for our starters are fine. I don't know if Quin could live with Cam or any young players mistakes, but I could see Ainge having some long term perspective to go with the short term goals. I think the price is higher (it is certainly trending that way if Reddish continues to play like he did last night).

Part of the reason you play Butler over Forrest is because the difference in functionality is likely to be almost zero... Butler becomes a solid asset if he plays okay or has a couple good nights. It also helps him build toward the bigger role next year. Bane was as ready as Butler but needed some rotation minutes to build a solid base... then he has a great summer and now he shines. I realize that winning is the priority, but it makes likely no difference if Butler gets Forrest's minutes. So building up the program is another priority. Those two things don't have to work against each other.

Conley is the big guy as far as minute management... Joe too but he may already be spent and not as effective in the playoffs. I'd like to see Donovan and Rudy get a few nights off as well... Rudy Gay should be on the Conley program (especially since Paschall is our most functional non-rotation player). The overall minute load is just fine... getting a few extra nights off will be a huge benefit though.

The case with Bane is that he got a boost in minutes with Dillon Brooks coming into the season injured and he capitalized. May also take a major injury or Covid on the team for Butler to see minutes.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

The case with Bane is that he got a boost in minutes with Dillon Brooks coming into the season injured and he capitalized. May also take a major injury or Covid on the team for Butler to see minutes.

He got a boost this year... but 95% of that boost was built last year with his experience. Forrest is the safest possible way to use those few rotation minutes we have currently available... its also the lowest possible outcome. If winning the current game was my only consideration that is who I would play... if I was looking at winning the title I'd be playing Butler for the reasons I already outlined.

Even if the shots don't go in you can see the way that JB moves that he can get where he wants and get good shots... also was pretty good finding open guys. He fouled too much on defense but that's a rookie thing and he was still competing... Giving him minutes now is like feeding your retirement account... a little bit adds up over time and you likely look back and are glad you made the small contributions you did. Bane doesn't do what he is doing if he doesn't get rotation minutes last year.

 

[jom2003]

He got a boost this year... but 95% of that boost was built last year with his experience. Forrest is the safest possible way to use those few rotation minutes we have currently available... its also the lowest possible outcome. If winning the current game was my only consideration that is who I would play... if I was looking at winning the title I'd be playing Butler for the reasons I already outlined.

Even if the shots don't go in you can see the way that JB moves that he can get where he wants and get good shots... also was pretty good finding open guys. He fouled too much on defense but that's a rookie thing and he was still competing... Giving him minutes now is like feeding your retirement account... a little bit adds up over time and you likely look back and are glad you made the small contributions you did. Bane doesn't do what he is doing if he doesn't get rotation minutes last year.

Unfortunately as things stand, it might take a covid outbreak on the team for Butler to see some extended actions

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Forrest can't shoot and he won't shoot... guys will hang off him more and more as the scouting report circulates. They drop under the picks and shut down his drives now. He's basically not good for anything on offense... good on defense but he's not one of these big disruptors that give you some amazing boost... he's not a lockdown guy either. He's fine... having one fine defender doesn't change that side of the court (we know this) but having one guy on offense that you can straight ignore with no negative consequences becomes detrimental. It is likely Forrest's effect on the court gets more and more negative the more minutes he plays. Butler would almost certainly be the opposite.

 

[Hekate]

Boosted Forrest gonna take the league by storm next year. Be ready.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Boosted Forrest gonna take the league by storm next year. Be ready.

Fo sure... I mean in his last 70 minutes of court time he has put up 6 points on 30% TS%... he has 5 turnovers int that time as weel... so as long as he keeps that point to turnover ratio at 1:1 he should be the next big thing.

History is full of point guards with a single digit usage rate and a turnover rate in the 30s that later took the league by storm... I ain't even sure he can take the G League by storm.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Wild to me that the same people who bust their nut over Shaq Harrison hate on Trent Forrest.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Wild to me that people think they are the same...

If we had a prospect at JB's level last year and were playing Shaq in his spot I'd likely take issue with it too. Prolly too much nuance for ya.

 

[Gameface]

So is the trade deadline New Year's eve?

Conley’s first year was ****ing rough. On both sides of the ball. Oy. Bad flashbacks.

It was kind of nuts. He was soo soo bad.

 

[framer]

Wild to me that the same people who bust their nut over Shaq Harrison hate on Trent Forrest.

How don't other people see this?

 

[KqWIN]

I honestly just want someone else to play because I can't stand watching Forrest play basketball,. He pounds the ball and grinds the offense to a halt. He has similar time of possession/touch time to Conley and Mitchell, but he's producing a whopping 6/3.5 per36 minutes. Not to be the Oni guy again, but at least when Oni played he stayed out of the way. It's one thing to do nothing and stand in the corner, another to hijack the offense and eat the shotclock while doing nothing. That's also the reason why Oni's lineups were so much better than Forrest's are.

The main purpose of this role is to take some minutes/burden off of Conley/Joe. I get it...but I don't see the reason to use Forrest over Butler or really any of the other young players tbh. He's not having a ton of success holding down the fort, and he's got the least amount of playoff potential.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

How don't other people see this?

I think mostly cuz its not true. I heard Locke going on about how he's our GP2 and writing a limerick for his 4 rebound 2 assist performance last night.

He's fine... he's not as disruptive as Shaq or GP2 and he's a negative offensive player and trending the wrong direction. Being a bad shooter will hurt the team... but not nearly as much as being a complete non-shooter. When Jock Londale is the defensive anchor it isn't a big issue and we will score still, but there are times when his guy is playing completely off of him and when the ball comes his way it becomes a turnover or drive to nowhere. Just won't cut it versus real competition.

And again... we didn't make time to even give Shaq time... if we did and had a prospect like Butler sitting there... I'd likely have an issue.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I honestly just want someone else to play because I can't stand watching Forrest play basketball,. He pounds the ball and grinds the offense to a halt. He has similar time of possession/touch time to Conley and Mitchell, but he's producing a whopping 6/3.5 per36 minutes. Not to be the Oni guy again, but at least when Oni played he stayed out of the way. It's one thing to do nothing and stand in the corner, another to hijack the offense and eat the shotclock while doing nothing. That's also the reason why Oni's lineups were so much better than Forrest's are.

The main purpose of this role is to take some minutes/burden off of Conley/Joe. I get it...but I don't see the reason to use Forrest over Butler or really any of the other young players tbh. He's not having a ton of success holding down the fort, and he's got the least amount of playoff potential.

This is basically it... and it isn't trending the right way. The other guys that folks like to compare him to get twice the amount of steals and deflections and Forrest gets twice the amount of turnovers of those guys. The turnovers aren't really even trying to do stuff... its a palming call or getting picked clean and the guy going the other way. This stuff will get worse the more he gets scouted. Hopefully we don't need him in the playoffs but if we do he's toast.

Most of our perimeter defenders are terrible so Forrest does look good in comparison. Its why in college I tried to make sure my friends were ugly. It is an effective strategy.