Trade deadline discussion

[jom2003]

It's a problem that only gets worse in the playoffs too. Even when Trent does have success on offense, it's not something that should be sustainable against a playoff gameplan. He can be a decent player in PnR when the defense is in a drop and he's willing to shoot the flaoter. But any competent coaching staff should be able to take that completely out of the picture by just going under. Maybe the reason why teams haven't already done that is because letting Trent dribble the air out the ball is already an effective defensive strategy.

Trent just gotta watching some Payton II tape. Start shooting some jumpers when open, setting hard screens, cutting backdoor, and most importantly, learning to touch the ball for no more than 3 seconds before releasing it. Basically all good habits for surviving in a half court offense.

 

[jom2003]

Then maybe they should play Butler… which is 100% what I’m saying.

Let Butler dominate the possession and take command during garbage minutes or games which we are not playing JC/Conley/DM/Jingles.

 

[NAOS]

Forrest might not be as disruptive as other players, but his effect on our defense has been huge. For example his defensive rating this year is a 97.7, GPII is a 96.8 playing with much better defenders. I get why the coaching staff is high on him, and he potentially gives us a lot of what we really need. He's also young and has room to be even better as a defender.

I am in the boat of wanting to see what Butler can do as well. I think he deserves another chance with rotation players. I'm hopeful he's learned the offense a little better and looks more comfortable. Butler is still our best prospect in a long time, and it would be crappy if we screw that up. I just don't think we have to hate on Forrest to make that argument.

I totally agree with this. But I also see some trends in the wrong direction (as far as Forrest’s play), as mentioned by HH.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Trent just gotta watching some Payton II tape. Start shooting some jumpers when open, setting hard screens, cutting backdoor, and most importantly, learning to touch the ball for no more than 3 seconds before releasing it. Basically all good habits for surviving in a half court offense.

He should consider becoming a nuclear athlete too like GP.... Trent ain't in GP's league. Just because a guy is shaped like another one it doesn't mean they are comparable.

Trent also has a slow release... so it takes a while to load up. He's not even looking to shoot the three at this point so its not really worth discussing.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

It's a problem that only gets worse in the playoffs too. Even when Trent does have success on offense, it's not something that should be sustainable against a playoff gameplan. He can be a decent player in PnR when the defense is in a drop and he's willing to shoot the flaoter. But any competent coaching staff should be able to take that completely out of the picture by just going under. Maybe the reason why teams haven't already done that is because letting Trent dribble the air out the ball is already an effective defensive strategy.

They already are... they went under on him last night and he forced a terrible missed layup. They didn't play as far off of him as some defenses have, but I've seen guys lagging way off him. The scouting report is out.

 

[Hekate]

Fo sure... I mean in his last 70 minutes of court time he has put up 6 points on 30% TS%... he has 5 turnovers int that time as weel... so as long as he keeps that point to turnover ratio at 1:1 he should be the next big thing.

History is full of point guards with a single digit usage rate and a turnover rate in the 30s that later took the league by storm... I ain't even sure he can take the G League by storm.

You can't use his stats now, though. That is all part of the boosting process.

He is great defensively, though and that matters. I am all for Butler to get some minutes but why should Forrest has to be the one to give his place? Come playoff time, ideally we aren't going to need both but whe the perimeter defense is causing problems again, or you need a stop, who are you going to throw out there?

 

[NAOS]

Over the years, Q has talked a lot about “force” and “juice”..... well, I ****ing guarantee that Trent has lots more of both than we’ve been seeing.

The big question for me is why we can’t find the type of player we need and/or why that type of player can’t break out in our system.

 

[jom2003]

He should consider becoming a nuclear athlete too like GP.... Trent ain't in GP's league. Just because a guy is shaped like another one it doesn't mean they are comparable.

Trent also has a slow release... so it takes a while to load up. He's not even looking to shoot the three at this point so its not really worth discussing.

yes, but keep in mind GPII even with his nuclear athleticism still spent his first 5 years in the league doing nothing. To me it's still more about learning the game than anything else but I'd agree Forrest still has a long way to go and may never get there.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

You can't use his stats now, though. That is all part of the boosting process.

He is great defensively, though and that matters. I am all for Butler to get some minutes but why should Forrest has to be the one to give his place? Come playoff time, ideally we aren't going to need both but whe the perimeter defense is causing problems again, or you need a stop, who are you going to throw out there?

I can look at stats now... because even if they get boosted AF they are still ummmm maybe averagish.

He's good defensively... and it isn't all that matters... the offense matters a whole lot. Remember that talented but reluctant shooter in Philly? One guy sucking in an offense is just as onerous as having a defensive sieve on the court.

 

[idiot]

Yuta or bust

Legitimately interested in what you think a realistic scenario for getting Yuta would be. I have a hard time imagining one beyond what we're clearly not willing to do.

 

[jom2003]

You can't use his stats now, though. That is all part of the boosting process.

He is great defensively, though and that matters. I am all for Butler to get some minutes but why should Forrest has to be the one to give his place? Come playoff time, ideally we aren't going to need both but whe the perimeter defense is causing problems again, or you need a stop, who are you going to throw out there?

this booster argument is giving me some Niang vibe. Like boosting him from 1ppg to 4ppg to 6ppg to 7ppg over four seasons and yet he's still completely useless to us in the playoffs. Hopefully Forrest does not go down that path.

 

[homeytennis]

Just tell Trent that every game is a Summer League game and Rudy is Dok. Problem solved.

 

[jom2003]

Legitimately interested in what you think a realistic scenario for getting Yuta would be. I have a hard time imagining one beyond what we're clearly not willing to do.

remember matt thomas. one second round draft pick, duh. he's only on a one year deal with Raptors. Either lose him for nothing next summer or get something for him now. He's not gonna see minutes anyways with Siakam, OG and Barnes.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Over the years, Q has talked a lot about “force” and “juice”..... well, I ****ing guarantee that Trent has lots more of both than we’ve been seeing.

The big question for me is why we can’t find the type of player we need and/or why that type of player can’t break out in our system.

It could be a big part of the issue... its why you almost have to have a fully established vet come in and do it... because force leads to **** ups sometimes... and young players aren't allowed to do that here. For example... if JC was some other no name young player you think Quin sees his talent and goes full ride or die with him?

Outside of Donovan, which was its own movement entirely, which young players have been empowered to grow during our playoff contention years. Joe and Royce early were really part of a different set of circumstances. Some of these players have become good solid players.... Allen, Burks, Neto (who was good here too)... Its likely a talent and environment thing but part of me wonders if Bane would be our third string 2 guard if we had drafted him.

There is a chance that Butler isn't good... there is also a chance he's the mother effer that wrecked college basketball's finest in the NCAA tournament. I've kind of hated the narrative around Jared since the pre-season. All the media guys saying "slow down... I know he just led all rookies in pre-season scoring but he has to learn to play with others..." Then he got some time and it wasn't great (like he was going to be a world beater in 3 minute stints in his first NBA action)... but it also wasn't horrible... there were some good things there. But because we can't stand any growing pains at all we shifted.

I think maybe we squeeze the juice out of guys and replace it with processors or some ****.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

remember matt thomas. one second round draft pick, duh. he's only on a one year deal with Raptors. Either lose him for nothing next summer or get something for him now. He's not gonna see minutes anyways with Siakam, OG and Barnes.

I think the difference is Yuta is good at basketball and Cold Matthew is effing terrible. Just because they may not play him 20 minutes a night once those guys are healthy (OG may be out long term if they decide to tank) doesn't mean they won't have better offers. I also think Siakham could get moved.

I think Yuta would fetch either one good second (like if you had OKC's 2nd) or two solid seconds... or they will just keep his bird rights and retain him (maybe for somewhat cheap). I think he has proved to be a unique and useful NBA wing.

 

[jom2003]

It could be a big part of the issue... its why you almost have to have a fully established vet come in and do it... because force leads to **** ups sometimes... and young players aren't allowed to do that here. For example... if JC was some other no name young player you think Quin sees his talent and goes full ride or die with him?

Outside of Donovan, which was its own movement entirely, which young players have been empowered to grow during our playoff contention years. Joe and Royce early were really part of a different set of circumstances. Some of these players have become good solid players.... Allen, Burks, Neto (who was good here too)... Its likely a talent and environment thing but part of me wonders if Bane would be our third string 2 guard if we had drafted him.

There is a chance that Butler isn't good... there is also a chance he's the mother effer that wrecked college basketball's finest in the NCAA tournament. I've kind of hated the narrative around Jared since the pre-season. All the media guys saying "slow down... I know he just led all rookies in pre-season scoring but he has to learn to play with others..." Then he got some time and it wasn't great (like he was going to be a world beater in 3 minute stints in his first NBA action)... but it also wasn't horrible... there were some good things there. But because we can't stand any growing pains at all we shifted.

I think maybe we squeeze the juice out of guys and replace it with processors or some ****.

I'd argue all Allen, AB and Neto were pretty good when they were here. Allen's career high is still 40 which he scored in his rookie year. Of course he didn't play as many games as he wanted but he was just a rookie. That was also a year where we acquired Korver midseason so we had to play him and thus pushed Allen out of the rotation entirely.
AB and Neto were dealing with injuries mostly when they were here, which is why I have to raise some questions in regards to our medical staff. AB was actually averaging a career high 33mpg and playing some of his best basketball in 2014/15 season under Quin through 27 games before he went out of commission with a season ending injury. So can't really fault Quin too much for that

 

[jom2003]

I think the difference is Yuta is good at basketball and Cold Matthew is effing terrible. Just because they may not play him 20 minutes a night once those guys are healthy (OG may be out long term if they decide to tank) doesn't mean they won't have better offers. I also think Siakham could get moved.

I think Yuta would fetch either one good second (like if you had OKC's 2nd) or two solid seconds... or they will just keep his bird rights and retain him (maybe for somewhat cheap). I think he has proved to be a unique and useful NBA wing.

One second should do. Remember we actually overpaid to get Thomas, who isn't really worth a pick. But I agree that we should take advantage of the situation and offer them a memphis second.

 

[Hekate]

I can look at stats now... because even if they get boosted AF they are still ummmm maybe averagish.

He's good defensively... and it isn't all that matters... the offense matters a whole lot. Remember that talented but reluctant shooter in Philly? One guy sucking in an offense is just as onerous as having a defensive sieve on the court.

Or he becomes our Terrance Mann.

I didn't say that defense is all that matters.

Neither Butler or Forrest are making max money and has to play a lot. They are not integral to the system as Simmons was. You may not be able to work it out with an unwilling shooter playing 30-35 minutes but all Forrest is going to play is limited minutes and scoring may become harder but Mitchell, Clarkson, Conley can carry the load if it's not the whole game.

In the scenario that we need defense for a few minutes Forrest is more likely and better suited to provide it. Quin may be giving him minutes to develop his offensive feel so he isn't as much of a burden offensively while helping us on defense.

If in the preseason we traded, Clarkson or Ingles or both for a defensive player that could be a part of the rotation, I am pretty sure Quin would play Butler as we would need more offense and playmaking.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Or he becomes our Terrance Mann.

I didn't say that defense is all that matters.

Neither Butler or Forrest are making max money and has to play a lot. They are not integral to the system as Simmons was. You may not be able to work it out with an unwilling shooter playing 30-35 minutes but all Forrest is going to play is limited minutes and scoring may become harder but Mitchell, Clarkson, Conley can carry the load if it's not the whole game.

In the scenario that we need defense for a few minutes Forrest is more likely and better suited to provide it. Quin may be giving him minutes to develop his offensive feel so he isn't as much of a burden offensively while helping us on defense.

If in the preseason we traded, Clarkson or Ingles or both for a defensive player that could be a part of the rotation, I am pretty sure Quin would play Butler as we would need more offense and playmaking.

I misread part of your post... so my bad.

Fact is saying you can't look at stats now cuz he gonna get boosted is ahhhh not logical. Is he gonna get boosted to something he isn't at all... cuz if that is the case wait until we boost JB to Marcus Smart on defense.

He's not Terance Mann... he's just not...

I used Ben Simmons to show that even if you are super talented on defense... you can be neutered in the playoffs if you can't and won't shoot... if that is for 5 minutes or 36 minutes it doesn't mean it isn't a problem.

Quin is playing him because of the bench players available he is the most familiar and provides the highest floor for an individual performance. On a night-to-night basis it might be a strategy that improves your chances of winning a bit. But it takes chances away from other dudes to get meaningful time. The payoff down the road is much bigger.

If you need a guy for a few minutes defensively in the playoffs, then Forrest can be that... I don't need to see him for 5-20 minutes a game the rest of the season to see that... I also don't need that time to see that he won't improve on his fatal flaw. His offense this year is worse than last.... His offense in the first 20 games was better than the last 10 games... give it another 15-20 games and i am not sure you are gonna get a "boost".

Rookies take some time to develop... invest what little time you have in a project with some upside... it doesn't have to pay off this season... hell the payoff might be that you have a solid trade asset either at the deadline or in the offseason. Hell the payoff may be that you figure out JB sucks and you don't keep him around. I'm good on the Trent Forrest time... he's a solid backup for injury insurance.

 

[idiot]

remember matt thomas. one second round draft pick, duh. he's only on a one year deal with Raptors. Either lose him for nothing next summer or get something for him now. He's not gonna see minutes anyways with Siakam, OG and Barnes.

Sorry, I don't consider this realistic, though I wish it was. They'll just keep him if that's our offer. They like him too much. They aren't looking to offload him like they were with Thomas.