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Trade deadline discussion

I feel bad that I want to see Clarkson get traded because I really like the guy. He became a Jazz man real quick when he got here, and had a big impact last year. He has obviously slipped...yeah, a lot. But it will still be hard to see him go. I really wish he had gone the other way this year and been more impactful for us. But now I want to see him go and bring back someone who can actually help us.
 
One guy I always liked who is rotting in the G-League is Zach Collins. He's a good defender and can shoot the three. You'd think some NBA team would have him on their roster.
 
jom2003 said:
Bogey isn't shooting at the same percentage as Barnes... One is at 38.5% on 6.5 attempt and one is 40.4% on 5 attempts, almost a 2% gap. And Barnes's now been shooting 38% or above from deep for 4 straight seasons and 6 times across his 10 year career, so it's not like this is some kind of outlying performance from him.

And like I said, ones being overused and ones being underused. Getting your shot isn't necessarily an indicator for being a good shooter. It has everything to do with your teammates and coaches.

We happen to have one of the leagues best screen setters in Rudy and top 10 PG in Conley so of course shooters will find it easier to get open looks. Especially for a guy who's been struggling with the ball in his hand all season like Bogey, he's already getting more shots than he normally would had he played on a team like the Kings where they just let Fox ball hogging with no regards to teammates whatsoever.

No reason Barnes can't get 6-7 shots from deep per game if we can get him on the Jazz. And keep in mind even without teammates creating for him, he can also create on his own more consistently without turning the ball over.
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One shooting 1.5% worse than the other but shooting 30% more attempts... if Barnes attempts go up they will likely be of slightly worse shot quality and his percentage will go down. Getting attempts up is actually a great indicator that you don't need as much space or have a quicker release or higher release or some other factor. Maybe the guy is just more judicious... that is fine but volume ****ing matters and I'm sure Kings coaches and players know Barnes can shoot and would love to get him more shots. It isn't just a lever you pull.

Its a mild upgrade and the cost is significant.
 
kabenac said:
One guy I always liked who is rotting in the G-League is Zach Collins. He's a good defender and can shoot the three. You'd think some NBA team would have him on their roster.
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He's on San Antonio's roster. He's perpetually hurt and likely working his way back from injury.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
One shooting 1.5% worse than the other but shooting 30% more attempts... if Barnes attempts go up they will likely be of slightly worse shot quality and his percentage will go down. Getting attempts up is actually a great indicator that you don't need as much space or have a quicker release or higher release or some other factor. Maybe the guy is just more judicious... that is fine but volume ****ing matters and I'm sure Kings coaches and players know Barnes can shoot and would love to get him more shots. It isn't just a lever you pull.

Its a mild upgrade and the cost is significant.
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you are overthinking it. barnes doesn't get as many shots up because...well, he doesn't get as many touches.

Bogey's 23.4% usage is 4% above Barnes and 4th highest on the entire Sacramento roster. If you watch Kings game you see Barnes can come on the floor then do cardio for 5 straight possessions without getting any touches on the ball. How are you supposed to get your shots off when you aren't even touching the basketball. That's why I called Barnes your ultimate low usg% player. Hard to find another player who can get you 16points a game with a usage lower than Tristian Thompson.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
One shooting 1.5% worse than the other but shooting 30% more attempts... if Barnes attempts go up they will likely be of slightly worse shot quality and his percentage will go down. Getting attempts up is actually a great indicator that you don't need as much space or have a quicker release or higher release or some other factor. Maybe the guy is just more judicious... that is fine but volume ****ing matters and I'm sure Kings coaches and players know Barnes can shoot and would love to get him more shots. It isn't just a lever you pull.

Its a mild upgrade and the cost is significant.
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even if you put Barnes shooting a slight downgrade to Bogey, he's a major upgrade in all other areas of the game. You can trust him in the clutch, handle the ball without turning it over, rebound at a respectable rate and not to be a huge defensive hole easily exploited by other teams.
 
jom2003 said:
you are overthinking it. barnes doesn't get as many shots up because...well, he doesn't get as many touches.

Bogey's 23.4% usage is 4% above Barnes and 4th highest on the entire Sacramento roster. If you watch Kings game you see Barnes can come on the floor then do cardio for 5 straight possessions without getting any touches on the ball. How are you supposed to get your shots off when you aren't even touching the basketball. That's why I called Barnes your ultimate low usg% player. Hard to find another player who can get you 16points a game with a usage lower than Tristian Thompson.
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https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm...r_id1=barneha02&p2yrfrom=2022&sum=0&request=1

They are so similar... just check out the head to head comparison there. The one year Barnes played with a good rebounding center his rebound numbers were even similar. If Barnes raises his usage his turnovers will also come up.

Over their careers Bogey is 1.3% higher on 3 point shooting on MUCH higher volume and 3% higher on 2 point shooting. Go ahead and state whatever reason you think it is that Barnes shoots like 50% less threes than Bogey as volume goes up percentages go down... its just ****ing science.

I think maybe you are under thinking it.
 
LogGrad98 said:
I feel bad that I want to see Clarkson get traded because I really like the guy. He became a Jazz man real quick when he got here, and had a big impact last year. He has obviously slipped...yeah, a lot. But it will still be hard to see him go. I really wish he had gone the other way this year and been more impactful for us. But now I want to see him go and bring back someone who can actually help us.
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Hey this proves I have feelings about other people, so I am not a sociopath!! Suck on that court-ordered therapist!!
 
jom2003 said:
even if you put Barnes shooting a slight downgrade to Bogey, he's a major upgrade in all other areas of the game. You can trust him in the clutch, handle the ball without turning it over, rebound at a respectable rate and not to be a huge defensive hole easily exploited by other teams.
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He's not a major upgrade in any of those areas. I honestly think if both guys were white or both guys were black no one would argue this. His turnovers are slightly lower and assists minimally higher and you yourself said he is a lower usage guy... do you think turnovers go up or down with more usage.

All of the defensive stuff is based on nothing... the "clutch" stuff is based on a few shots he has hit for a ****** go nowhere franchise... half their games are garbage time. His clutch shooting this year is in the low 30s on 2s and 3s and bogey is basically 50/40. Last year Bogey struggle but Barnes didn't light the world on fire. Both guys have some nice game winners... So does Furkan Korkmaz but it doesn't make him "clutch"

They are damn near the spider man meme.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm...r_id1=barneha02&p2yrfrom=2022&sum=0&request=1

They are so similar... just check out the head to head comparison there. The one year Barnes played with a good rebounding center his rebound numbers were even similar. If Barnes raises his usage his turnovers will also come up.

Over their careers Bogey is 1.3% higher on 3 point shooting on MUCH higher volume and 3% higher on 2 point shooting. Go ahead and state whatever reason you think it is that Barnes shoots like 50% less threes than Bogey as volume goes up percentages go down... its just ****ing science.

I think maybe you are under thinking it.
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they are not similar...

Barnes gets to the foul line more, grabs more rebounds, dishes out more assists on less turnovers, gets your more steals and blocks. doesn't matter if it's per 36 or per 100 possession. He's better than Bogey in all aspects of the game besides scoring, which heavily depends on usg% and touches he gets.

of course player's TOs would come up if they get more usage. that's natural game of basketball. but once they get more touches, do they also get more assists and create more chances for his teammates.

bogey's had spent a total of 8 seasons in the NBA, and 5 of those seasons he's had more turnovers than assists, meaning the more touches he gets the more he's hurting your offense.

Barnes by comparison, only had done it once and it was from his rookie season.

Bogey's an offball shooter and you would want him to stay away from the ball-handling duty as much as possible. Barnes just gives you more flexibility both offensively and defensively.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
He's not a major upgrade in any of those areas. I honestly think if both guys were white or both guys were black no one would argue this. His turnovers are slightly lower and assists minimally higher and you yourself said he is a lower usage guy... do you think turnovers go up or down with more usage.

All of the defensive stuff is based on nothing... the "clutch" stuff is based on a few shots he has hit for a ****** go nowhere franchise... half their games are garbage time. His clutch shooting this year is in the low 30s on 2s and 3s and bogey is basically 50/40. Last year Bogey struggle but Barnes didn't light the world on fire. Both guys have some nice game winners... So does Furkan Korkmaz but it doesn't make him "clutch"

They are damn near the spider man meme.
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again, a good playmaker/ball handler would create more chances for your offense with higher usg%, which's not the case for Bogey, whose career A/T ratio falls well below 1. he's basically a turnover machine if you give him the ball more, which is why he relies so much on his teammates creating for him. you can take bogey as a slight better shooter than barnes. but that's all he's good for.
 
I think I invented the “Bojan for Barnes is a wash at best” take. But that being said, he’d be a big upgrade to Royce’s spot. Both could play average defense but Barnes will give you a lot more across the board. We’re currently getting Jarron Collins level production from that spot.
 
jom2003 said:
they are not similar...

Barnes gets to the foul line more, grabs more rebounds, dishes out more assists on less turnovers, gets your more steals and blocks. doesn't matter if it's per 36 or per 100 possession. He's better than Bogey in all aspects of the game besides scoring, which heavily depends on usg% and touches he gets.

of course player's TOs would come up if they get more usage. that's natural game of basketball. but once they get more touches, do they also get more assists and create more chances for his teammates.

bogey's had spent a total of 8 seasons in the NBA, and 5 of those seasons he's had more turnovers than assists, meaning the more touches he gets the more he's hurting your offense.

Barnes by comparison, only had done it once and it was from his rookie season.

Bogey's an offball shooter and you would want him to stay away from the ball-handling duty as much as possible. Barnes just gives you more flexibility both offensively and defensively.
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His extra .6 assists and .1 steals and .2 blocks will be huge!!!! He's a better rebounder but that difference won't change much once he shares the court with Rudy.

He is not some ball handling wing. You want him to shoot spot up shots and post a little bit... kinda like what you want Bogey to do. You can ignore the actual stats if you want. Both guys run 1 pick and roll a game... guess what Bogey is better. Bogey is better in the post too. Both guys almost never run iso... but when they do... they both suck. Both guys make their living off of spot up opportunities... and Bogey is better.

We are assuming he is better on defense but he is on one of the worst defensive teams in the league and the team is MUCH worse when he is on the court... like +10.2 pts per 100... that is worst on the team. So any assumptions he is better on defense are guesses at best.
 
infection said:
I think I invented the “Bojan for Barnes is a wash at best” take. But that being said, he’d be a big upgrade to Royce’s spot. Both could play average defense but Barnes will give you a lot more across the board. We’re currently getting Jarron Collins level production from that spot.
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This is my thinking as well. I really don't think we need to compare Bogey and Barnes or choose between them...I think there's a chance we can have both.
 
Jingled said:
This is my thinking as well. I really don't think we need to compare Bogey and Barnes or choose between them...I think there's a chance we can have both.
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Right but the issue is diminishing returns. Also I’m quite sure Barnes is a worse defender than Royce. I’ve never thought “we need two Bogey’s” but I have thought “we need another Royce”. Granted this was in previous years when Royce was playing better defense than the current version of Royce.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
Right but the issue is diminishing returns. Also I’m quite sure Barnes is a worse defender than Royce. I’ve never thought “we need two Bogey’s” but I have thought “we need another Royce”. Granted this was in previous years when Royce was playing better defense than the current version of Royce.
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I think you're underestimating the value of putting more size on the floor. Barnes being bigger/longer will make him a better team defender. Also, I think that House and Forrest are as good defensively on the perimeter as Royce.
 
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