Transgender and sports

[Al-O-Meter]

Since we were discussing NCAA swimming, which new rules would those be in NCAA swimming?

Kudos to you for asking the question and not answering your own question when you think you know the answer like so many people do. The ruling of the NCAA was to pass buck. They didn't have the backbone to make the decision so they made it their new policy to use a sport-specific policy that allowed the governing bodies to set the guidelines. With swimming, the governing body is USA Swimming.

"Under the new policy, Thomas will need to be in compliance with USA Swimming’s criteria in order to compete at the NCAA championships in March."

NCAA adopts new, sport-specific transgender policy

Effective immediately, the NCAA will look to each sport's individual governing bodies to determine transgender participation in its sports.

justwomenssports.com

I also know you are not a swimmer and seem to be trying to find loopholes in the language, but trust me. It is over. They are demanding 3 years of sub-5 nmol/L testosterone AND getting the approval of a "Fairness Panel" for athletes aged over 12.

 

[One Brow]

Kudos to you for asking the question and not answering your own question when you think you know the answer like so many people do. The ruling of the NCAA was to pass buck. They didn't have the backbone to make the decision so they made it their new policy to use a sport-specific policy that allowed the governing bodies to set the guidelines. With swimming, the governing body is USA Swimming.



I also know you are not a swimmer and seem to be trying to find loopholes in the language, but trust me. It is over. They are demanding 3 years of sub-5 nmol/L testosterone AND getting the approval of a "Fairness Panel" for athletes aged over 12.

For Elite Events only (caps as in the rules, not my choice). Did the Ivy League meets become Elite Events?

 

[One Brow]

The Ivy League Women's Swimming Championships were last week. Lia Thomas participated and won three events, but in each case she was too slow to qualify to participate in the NCAA championships, and wasn't close to an NCAA record. So, I wonder who in this thread will admit they were worried over nothing?

@Al-O-Meter (aka Mr. Swim Coach)?
@TheGoldStandard ?
@Scat ?
@fishonjazz ?
@slc ?
@Keefe ?

I guess we go 0 for 6. Bigots will be bigots.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

Lia Thomas participated and won three events, but in each case she was too slow to qualify to participate in the NCAA championships

As in every other post you've made on the subject, you prove once again that you don't know what you are talking about. Lia Thomas did qualify for the NCAA championships and thanks to a last minute decision by the NCAA where they reversed themselves to take back their previous position of deferring to USA Swimming, Thomas will be allowed to complete at the NCAA championships this year.

Trans swimmer Lia Thomas wins 4 races at Ivy championships, heads to NCAA finals

The Penn student’s record-setting wins come amid a wave of anti-transgender media coverage and an ongoing debate about trans athletes in women’s sports.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[One Brow]

As in every other post you've made on the subject, you prove once again that you don't know what you are talking about.

Gosh, Mr. Swim Coach, I feel so silly. I just used the data from http://www.meetresults.com/2022/ivies/results.shtml.

At 100 yards, the A standard (the maximum time needed to compete in the NCAA championships, as I understand it), is 47.18s. Thomas swam 47.63.

http://www.meetresults.com/2022/ivies/live/220216F017.htm

At 200, the A standard is 1:42.98, Thomas swam 1:43.12.

http://www.meetresults.com/2022/ivies/live/220216F011.htm

At 500, the A standard is 4:35.76, Thomas swam 4:37.32.

http://www.meetresults.com/2022/ivies/live/220216F003.htm

(Edit to add) Penn (Lia's team) was 4th in the relay.

Meanwhile, women from the big schools (Big 10, Pac 12, etc.), etc., are meeting these standards to move on the championships.

So, can you do better than an MSNBC article? Under what provisions does Thomas qualify, Mr. Swim Coach?

 

[Al-O-Meter]

Gosh, Mr. Swim Coach, I feel so silly. I just used the data from http://www.meetresults.com/2022/ivies/results.shtml. ... Under what provisions does Thomas qualify, Mr. Swim Coach?

Thomas qualified for the NCAA championships back in December at the Zippy Invitational. All Thomas did at the Ivy Championship is swim faster than any biological female has ever swam in the history of that meet or the history of that pool.

 

[One Brow]

Thomas qualified for the NCAA championships back in December at the Zippy Invitational.

Thanks. From what I can tell of the Zippy results, she qualified in 2 events (500M & 200M freestyle), and she's been swimming slower ever since. Will women's swimming ever recover from such a blow?

Lia's times in the Zippy (4:34.06 in the 500 free, 1:41.93 in the 200 free) are still slower than the best times of other swimmers competing this year, much less the record books.

All Thomas did at the Ivy Championship is swim faster than any biological female has ever swam in the history of that meet or the history of that pool.

So, she the metaphorical equivalent of the home run champ of the AA leagues? Oh the horrors!

Bigots will bigot.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

she's been swimming slower ever since.

Thomas has been swimming in slower pools ever since. The Ivy League has some ancient pools. Harvard's pool where the Ivy Championships were held, and where Thomas set all time records, is nearly a century old. The lanes are a full 3 feet shallower than they would be at a modern facility and that shows up in slower swim times. Thomas won't be that slow in a newer 3 meter deep pool with good gutters that weren't retrofitted.

 

[Gameface]

I think I've come to the conclusion that sports in schools is NOT about education, it is clearly about competition and finding the best of the best. Therefore sports shouldn't be in school at all. It should be private leagues that can set whatever admission standards that they see fit.

Boom. Problem solved.

I think sports in schools has had many many negative consequences for all but a very select few.

The fact that so many people in this thread honestly believed that in high school most males are reasonably equal in athletic ability is a ****ing joke. What they mean is that the filtered pool of jocks are all roughly equal, **** all the biological males who may have wanted to gain the benefits of team sports but who didn't make the team.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

I think I've come to the conclusion that sports in schools is NOT about education

This I agree with.

it is clearly about competition and finding the best of the best. Therefore sports shouldn't be in school at all.

...and this I couldn't disagree with more strongly. Sports are about building community and I think we need more of that, not less. The haters will call people “bigots” and other hateful names even if we abolish sports. I think it is a mistake to let those people push you to get rid of everything in life.



I’m bad at basketball but that doesn’t mean I can’t find community among other fans of basketball. I don’t have to be good at a sport to gain something from it.

As far as private leagues, they are everywhere. That is where nearly all college athletes come from. A lot of people get athletic scholarships based on skills developed in club sports in exchange for providing a service that builds community at the school. For many, that is one of the highlights of their lives. I don't believe abolishing sports at universities and high schools is a benefit to those schools or to broader society.

 

[One Brow]

...and this I couldn't disagree with more strongly. Sports are about building community and I think we need more of that, not less.

Yet, you take a position that excludes people from the community rather than includes them.

The haters will call people “bigots” and other hateful names even if we abolish sports.

When you take a position that runs counter to your stated purpose, for the sake of excluding a marginalized group, bigotry is the best explanation.

I think it is a mistake to let those people push you to get rid of everything in life.

No one is pushing to get rid of school sports.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

No one is pushing to get rid of school sports.

You must be having an off day because your reading comprehension is usually better than this.

Therefore sports shouldn't be in school at all.

 

[One Brow]

Thomas has been swimming in slower pools ever since.

Odd how that didn't seem to affect her teammates.

2021 Zippy Invite Finals 3 Women 500 Free - University of Akron Athletics

2021 Zippy Invite Finals 3 Women 500 Free

gozips.com

http://www.meetresults.com/2022/ivies/live/220216F003.htm

Swimmer - Zippy 500m time - Ivy Champ 500m time
Thomas, Lia - 4:34.06 - 4:37.32
Kalandadze, Anna Sofi - 4:48.99 - 4:47.54
Girotto, Amelia - 4:55.47 - 4:49.88
Giddings, Grace - 4:55:84 - 4:55.91

So, Mr. Swim Coach, why weren't Thomas's teammates affected by the slower pool? One might think you were making up anything you could to justify an irrational dislike.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

So, Mr. Swim Coach, why weren't Thomas's teammates affected by the slower pool?

I don’t know any of the swimmers, what was going on in their lives, or how their training was going but I do know what makes a pool slow, and Harvard’s pool is slow.

What Makes a Pool Fast?

Only swimmers know and understand the feeling of a fast pool. But what exactly are the factors that make a pool fast? Read on to find out.

www.swimmingworldmagazine.com

 

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I don’t know any of the swimmers, what was going on in their lives, or how their training was going but I do know what makes a pool slow, and Harvard’s pool is slow.

You don't know Thomas, what's going on in her life, nor how her training is going, but that hasn't stopped you from making confident predictions. Why is that?

 

[LogGrad98]

I think I've come to the conclusion that sports in schools is NOT about education, it is clearly about competition and finding the best of the best. Therefore sports shouldn't be in school at all. It should be private leagues that can set whatever admission standards that they see fit.

Boom. Problem solved.

I think sports in schools has had many many negative consequences for all but a very select few.

The fact that so many people in this thread honestly believed that in high school most males are reasonably equal in athletic ability is a ****ing joke. What they mean is that the filtered pool of jocks are all roughly equal, **** all the biological males who may have wanted to gain the benefits of team sports but who didn't make the team.

Unfortunately you nailed the prevailing culture in high school boy's sports. That is exactly the way it goes. I was a high school athlete and I could not stand the locker-room **** that went on, and the attitude that the jocks were better than everyone else. It may have helped that I was also on the chess team and in the first computer club at my high school, to broaden my views. I never was considered a "jock" but many took pride that they were. It is really a breeding ground for toxic masculinity. Too bad.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

You don't know Thomas, what's going on in her life, nor how her training is going, but that hasn't stopped you from making confident predictions. Why is that?

The only predictions I believe I've made is that Thomas will be faster in the 10 foot deep pool used in the next meet than in the 7 foot deep pool used in the most recent meet. I believe that because of a vast collection of evidence. It is possible a swimmer could go faster in a shallow pool just like it is possible a biological female could beat a biological male, but on average it doesn't happen. Objective competitive advantages do exist. Thomas should be welcomed in competition but should be competing with other biological males even if Lia wants to wear a dress between swim meets. Lia is a biological male. Lia is NOT a biological female. Call Thomas by whatever pronoun you want but Lia is a biological male pretending to be a biological female. Lia's charade may be motivated by wanting what is presented to the world to match some interior feeling but it is still a charade and Lia Thomas is still a biological male even when wearing a dress. The divisions in sport are not about fashion.

 

[One Brow]

The only predictions I believe I've made is that Thomas will be faster in the 10 foot deep pool used in the next meet than in the 7 foot deep pool used in the most recent meet. I believe that because of a vast collection of evidence.

Yet, this effect did not apply to three other swimmers on Thomas's team in the same meets, to your complete bafflement. It's almost like the effect will be minor compared to other issues. Perhaps Harvard's pool isn't as slow as you think it is. Perhaps you are letting your fear/loathing dictate over your reasoning.

Lia is a biological male.

Lia does not currently have the physiology of a biological male, so she is not one.

Call Thomas by whatever pronoun you want but Lia is a biological male pretending to be a biological female.

It statements like this where you earn the title "bigot", as much as you whine about being called that.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

It's almost like the effect will be minor compared to other issues. Perhaps Harvard's pool isn't as slow as you think it is.

Think so? Up for another wager?

 

[Scat]

The Ivy League Women's Swimming Championships were last week. Lia Thomas participated and won three events, but in each case she was too slow to qualify to participate in the NCAA championships, and wasn't close to an NCAA record. So, I wonder who in this thread will admit they were worried over nothing?

@Al-O-Meter (aka Mr. Swim Coach)?
@TheGoldStandard ?
@Scat ?
@fishonjazz ?
@slc ?
@Keefe ?

I guess we go 0 for 6. Bigots will be bigots.

I say this with all due respect, go **** yourself.

I am so tired of the holier-than-thou, pious assholes that have gathered here. And there are quite a few of you. If you disagree with them or have a difference of opinion they resort to name calling and belittlement. I think it will be quite a while before I bother coming back.