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Hillary Clinton says Tulsi Gabbard is a 'Russian asset' groomed to ensure Trump reelection

Yep. I mean biden would be like 81 so I would definitely pick romney over him but I would love to chose from some candidates in the 40-60 year old range. I think thats the sweet spot.
The problem is the way our politics have been for the last 20+ years it's just creating cronies, no one with new ideas or capable of stepping up and away from the party line. The only ones who could carry the vote would be mini Trumps or Biden.
 
I'm with you on wanting the candidates to be younger, but I also want to pick from the pool of viable people.

That said, Romney doesn't get out of the primary against Trump in the disappointing world I seem to be living in. No need to think about it too much.
Romney might struggle to get out of his primary in Utah. You know they’re going to run a MAGA candidate to the right of him and I wouldn’t be surprised if it ends up being close.
 
Romney would have to run as an independent and rely on being financed from centrists. Romney's by no means poor and is rich by any measure, but you literally need to be a billionaire to run a viable campaign (ex. Perot). And money isn't everything as Bloomberg could tell you.

I still struggle with seeing how 2024 isn't Trump vs. Biden unless 1) Somebody passes away, 2) Biden decides one term is enough or 3) Trump decides he'd rather be a shadow president/CEO and support somebody like DeSantis to simply be his public puppeteer while he truly pulls the strings.
 
Romney would have to run as an independent and rely on being financed from centrists. Romney's by no means poor and is rich by any measure, but you literally need to be a billionaire to run a viable campaign (ex. Perot). And money isn't everything as Bloomberg could tell you.

I still struggle with seeing how 2024 isn't Trump vs. Biden unless 1) Somebody passes away, 2) Biden decides one term is enough or 3) Trump decides he'd rather be a shadow president/CEO and support somebody like DeSantis to simply be his public puppeteer while he truly pulls the strings.
Trump is totally going to run in 2024 unless he dies.

I could see Biden not wanting to run. But then who could beat Trump? Kamala is too black and female. Fox News is doing their hardest to Hillaryize her and it's probably working in a number of key states that Democrats need to win (I'm thinking especially in the rust belt). Mayor Pete is too gay. That's still a major disqualifier for a large segment of the population (including major constituencies of the Democratic party). You know that it'll be really easy for large segments of the electorate to fall for the cheap homophobic attacks that'll be leveled on him. "Pete is gonna legalize trannies in sports! He's going to groom kids! Look at how weak and decadent we are, Chasten is the first lady hahaha!" And if you don't think those attacks won't have a significant impact on the electorate, then I truly wonder if you know anything about America.

Democrats have plenty of moderates, like Klobuchar ann Whitmer, but they'll be destroyed for being women. Remember, we're just a few years away from "Trump that Bitch" being a thing. Again, if you don't think Whitmer won't attract a ton of sexist attacks, then you must not know America at all. A bunch of other Democrats are either too hispanic (go back to Mexico Rep Castro), black (Corey Booker wants to urbanize your neighborhood!), female (Trump that bitch), or urban to win in the general.

It's really tough to win the EC while trying to maintain a large tent. It's much easier to just juice your base with homophobic and bigoted attacks and reap the rewards of the reactionary structure of the EC that benefits ruralists who are falling increasingly behind the rest of the country economically and culturally... Meanwhile, Democrats need to excite turnout in urban areas while also winning the whiter and more conservative rust belt areas in order to win the EC. That's why Biden was so attractive. If you go with someone younger, black/brown, gay, or female, you'll probably lose the rust belt and hand Trump a 2nd term.
 
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Romney would have to run as an independent and rely on being financed from centrists. Romney's by no means poor and is rich by any measure, but you literally need to be a billionaire to run a viable campaign (ex. Perot). And money isn't everything as Bloomberg could tell you.

I still struggle with seeing how 2024 isn't Trump vs. Biden unless 1) Somebody passes away, 2) Biden decides one term is enough or 3) Trump decides he'd rather be a shadow president/CEO and support somebody like DeSantis to simply be his public puppeteer while he truly pulls the strings.
Trump isn't smart enough, sophisticated enough, or educated enough to be a puppeteer. He is a crude, misinformed, megalomaniac. Someone who controls things from behind the scenes would have to have some sort of cunning and forethought. Trump is all bravado, he's in it for the positive affirmation he gets from his cult rallies. You can't get that as a puppet master.
 
Trump isn't smart enough, sophisticated enough, or educated enough to be a puppeteer. He is a crude, misinformed, megalomaniac. Someone who controls things from behind the scenes would have to have some sort of cunning and forethought. Trump is all bravado, he's in it for the positive affirmation he gets from his cult rallies. You can't get that as a puppet master.
This.

The really sad thing is, looking at the stable of possible horses to run in the upcoming races, there are exactly zero thoroughbreds. We don't have anyone ready or with the reach to be president who isn't basically exactly who we have had for the past 2 election cycles. In fact, in the foreseeable future (say next 2-3 presidential election cycles), barring the quick rise of some young gun, I can't see anyone being in the role that will make a positive difference or move the needle from these last 2 geezers. Not a very good outlook for the ultimate leadership of our country.

Divided we fall, and the fall is shaping up to be pretty ****ing precipitous.
 
Long way to go until 2024, and a lot can happen to turn around Biden’s numbers. Or not. If he chooses not to run, personally, I like this idea, although Michelle Obama does not, as yet….


 
Long way to go until 2024, and a lot can happen to turn around Biden’s numbers. Or not. If he chooses not to run, personally, I like this idea, although Michelle Obama does not, as yet….


I really hate the idea of political dynasties, like with a Bush Sr, Bush Jr, and then they tried again with Jeb Bush, Bill Clinton then eventually Hillary Clinton. I mean it's not quite as bad as this push for celebrity candidates like Oprah and a few others but I still don't like it.

I wish we had a better way of finding good Presidential candidates. Ideally there would be scholars and philosophers and retired military leadership, but what we have are lawyers turned politicians for the most part, followed by celebrities and reality TV personalities.

Ugh.
 
Trump is totally going to run in 2024 unless he dies.

I could see Biden not wanting to run. But then who could beat Trump? Kamala is too black and female. Fox News is doing their hardest to Hillaryize her and it's probably working in a number of key states that Democrats need to win (I'm thinking especially in the rust belt). Mayor Pete is too gay. That's still a major disqualifier for a large segment of the population (including major constituencies of the Democratic party). You know that it'll be really easy for large segments of the electorate to fall for the cheap homophobic attacks that'll be leveled on him. "Pete is gonna legalize trannies in sports! He's going to groom kids! Look at how weak and decadent we are, Chasten is the first lady hahaha!" And if you don't think those attacks won't have a significant impact on the electorate, then I truly wonder if you know anything about America.

Democrats have plenty of moderates, like Klobuchar ann Whitmer, but they'll be destroyed for being women. Remember, we're just a few years away from "Trump that Bitch" being a thing. Again, if you don't think Whitmer won't attract a ton of sexist attacks, then you must not know America at all. A bunch of other Democrats are either too hispanic (go back to Mexico Rep Castro), black (Corey Booker wants to urbanize your neighborhood!), female (Trump that bitch), or urban to win in the general.

It's really tough to win the EC while trying to maintain a large tent. It's much easier to just juice your base with homophobic and bigoted attacks and reap the rewards of the reactionary structure of the EC that benefits ruralists who are falling increasingly behind the rest of the country economically and culturally... Meanwhile, Democrats need to excite turnout in urban areas while also winning the whiter and more conservative rust belt areas in order to win the EC. That's why Biden was so attractive. If you go with someone younger, black/brown, gay, or female, you'll probably lose the rust belt and hand Trump a 2nd term.

I agree with most of this but in your last sentence why did you include young in your list of things that would make democrats lose? Wouldnt a young straight white male be ok?


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Trump isn't smart enough, sophisticated enough, or educated enough to be a puppeteer. He is a crude, misinformed, megalomaniac. Someone who controls things from behind the scenes would have to have some sort of cunning and forethought. Trump is all bravado, he's in it for the positive affirmation he gets from his cult rallies. You can't get that as a puppet master.
I don't necessarily disagree with you, but could also argue that he's already doing it now. Look at the scrounge of the right, the MTG's and Boebert's of the world who would have no place in politics if not for Trumpism. The journalists such as Tucker Carlson and other bootlickers who continue to fawn Trump as some savant and lauding 'the good ol' days' before they were stolen. Even saying his name in presidential circles makes other candidates like DeSantis that would normally be a frontrunner need to steer the ship carefully to avoid upsetting the base yet trying to craft themselves as the next baton-holder of the party. Hell, drive around and see how many people already have 2024 Trump flags or flying tattered 2020 ones on their lifted trucks or displayed on their property.

He's already puppeteering or others are doing it on his behalf whether we like or not. And in no civilized society does any of this make any sense in the slightest, but welcome to your life in 2022.
 
I don't necessarily disagree with you, but could also argue that he's already doing it now. Look at the scrounge of the right, the MTG's and Boebert's of the world who would have no place in politics if not for Trumpism. The journalists such as Tucker Carlson and other bootlickers who continue to fawn Trump as some savant and lauding 'the good ol' days' before they were stolen. Even saying his name in presidential circles makes other candidates like DeSantis that would normally be a frontrunner need to steer the ship carefully to avoid upsetting the base yet trying to craft themselves as the next baton-holder of the party. Hell, drive around and see how many people already have 2024 Trump flags or flying tattered 2020 ones on their lifted trucks or displayed on their property.

He's already puppeteering or others are doing it on his behalf whether we like or not. And in no civilized society does any of this make any sense in the slightest, but welcome to your life in 2022.
I see that more as Trump opened the gates of hell and these are the devil spawn that sprung forth than as him being puppet master.
 
I agree with most of this but in your last sentence why did you include young in your list of things that would make democrats lose? Wouldnt a young straight white male be ok?


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A straight white male would probably be the best for winning in the general. But the party is increasingly more diverse and female. So that brings its own challenges. Democrats have to try and keep their base excited and engaged. The base increasingly wants a more liberal and diverse candidate. While the EC forces the party to still pander with more rural and conservative rust belt states that are increasingly whiter and more conservative.

Republicans for right now at least, don't have to worry about pandering to any constituency. They can just focus on culture wars and white grievance and bank on their base turning out to win enough EC states. They clearly no longer even attempt to win the popular vote.
 
A straight white male would probably be the best for winning in the general. But the party is increasingly more diverse and female. So that brings its own challenges. Democrats have to try and keep their base excited and engaged. The base increasingly wants a more liberal and diverse candidate. While the EC forces the party to still pander with more rural and conservative rust belt states that are increasingly whiter and more conservative.

Republicans for right now at least, don't have to worry about pandering to any constituency. They can just focus on culture wars and white grievance and bank on their base turning out to win enough EC states. They clearly no longer even attempt to win the popular vote.
Maybe you didn't read my post. You were saying that we have to have candidates like biden because other candidates are too black/hispanic, gay, or female or young. I was asking why too young is an issue. I understand that there are a lot of people who might not vote for a woman or a homosexual or a POC but I dont understand why anyone would be against voting for someone in their mid 50's or something
 
Maybe you didn't read my post. You were saying that we have to have candidates like biden because other candidates are too black/hispanic, gay, or female or young. I was asking why too young is an issue. I understand that there are a lot of people who might not vote for a woman or a homosexual or a POC but I dont understand why anyone would be against voting for someone in their mid 50's or something
I’m pretty sure I read your post and my response is still the same. Young white Democrats will encounter the same problems; attracting the whiter, older, more conservative vote of the rust belt states needed to win the EC. Until Texas, Georgia, and Arizona become reliably blue, Democrats need to placate to rust belt states. While Many of their younger candidates are seen to be too liberal, too college educated, too gay, too black, too female etc to win in the rust belt.

I’d like to see some younger candidates too. Someone like Jared Polis, from Colorado. He’s under 50. But can he win the rust belt while also getting turnout from urban centers? Andy Beshear is like 44 and he won in Kentucky.

So there are some candidates that we might see throw their hats in the ring if Biden chooses to not run for re-election.

But the challenge again is going to be:

How do you thread the needle of being attractive to a base that is increasingly more liberal and diverse while also pandering to the 3 rust belt states you need to secure the EC?
 
While Many of their younger candidates are seen to be too liberal, too college educated, too gay, too black, too female etc to win in the rust belt.
Why would a straight, white, male in his 50's who isn't very liberal be seen as too gay, too black, too female or too liberal?
Also fwiw that obama guy won twice.
 
Why would a straight, white, male in his 50's who isn't very liberal be seen as too gay, too black, too female or too liberal?
Also fwiw that obama guy won twice.
I don’t think you’re understanding what I’m saying:

1. The Democratic Party and it’s base is becoming more diverse. So it’s harder for a straight white male to win the primary.
2. The rust belt states needed to win the general are becoming whiter and more conservative.

Obama won in a different time. Whites have fled the Democratic party since 2008 and 2012 (especially working class whites w/o college degrees). So while Democrats have picked up votes from the LGBT and college educated vote, they haven’t been offset by the working class white vote that they’ve lost. Republicans have figured that demo out. Yet, Democrats can’t just pander to that demo or else risk losing their party base, the diverse and urban vote.

This results in Democrats increasingly finding success with the popular vote but losing the electoral college.

BTW, Obama winning twice is what created Trump’s winning coalition. Without Obama, there’s no white backlash that elects Trump.
 
I don’t think you’re understanding what I’m saying:

1. The Democratic Party and it’s base is becoming more diverse. So it’s harder for a straight white male to win the primary.
2. The rust belt states needed to win the general are becoming whiter and more conservative.

Obama won in a different time. Whites have fled the Democratic party since 2008 and 2012 (especially working class whites w/o college degrees). So while Democrats have picked up votes from the LGBT and college educated vote, they haven’t been offset by the working class white vote that they’ve lost. Republicans have figured that demo out. Yet, Democrats can’t just pander to that demo or else risk losing their party base, the diverse and urban vote.

This results in Democrats increasingly finding success with the popular vote but losing the electoral college.
And so in conclusion a younger candidate can't win?

I'm confused.
 
I really hate the idea of political dynasties, like with a Bush Sr, Bush Jr, and then they tried again with Jeb Bush, Bill Clinton then eventually Hillary Clinton. I mean it's not quite as bad as this push for celebrity candidates like Oprah and a few others but I still don't like it.

I wish we had a better way of finding good Presidential candidates. Ideally there would be scholars and philosophers and retired military leadership, but what we have are lawyers turned politicians for the most part, followed by celebrities and reality TV personalities.

Ugh.
Essentially, since we are a 100% media (read internet-driven, everything from news outlets to social media, etc.) driven society then the ones who have the biggest public presence are the ones that are known and get voted for. Hence Trump. He had this dark segment of society that loved his no-nonsense "you're fired" approach to **** and ended up sharing his racist and misogynistic attitudes as well that nearly carried him to a second term. It is this silent (until recently) majority type of group that is the real X-factor when it comes to the next elections. But this group was tapped into because Trump had the media presence to be known to them to begin with. This is why you will almost never see any academics or philosophers in the presidential elections, no one knows who they are and those will never garner enough public attention to be on anyone's radar.
 
And so in conclusion a younger candidate can't win?

I'm confused.
Win what? The primary or general?

That’s the quandary guys. You and fish keep talking about one election when I keep talking about two. There are two elections that a candidate must win, the primary nomination and the general. For Democrats, you almost two completely different candidates to win them both.

1. A younger and more diverse and lesser known candidate would most likely excite the base and win the primary.
2. To win the general, you desperately need name recognition. A white and older candidate is more appealing to the rust belt states that are increasingly older and whiter in order to win for the EC.

So if Biden doesn’t run in 2024, can a young white male candidate win? Absolutely as long as he wins the nomination. Hell need to appeal to the party’s increasingly more diverse, liberal, and college educated base.

Will he win the general? That could be difficult as old white dudes give you the best chance to win rust belt states.

That’s why Biden got the nomination in SC once Jim Clayborn swung the entire primary with the black vote. Otherwise, you were probably looking at a Mayor Pete or Sen Sanders vs Trump general. Clayborn did that because Biden was seen as the best candidate to beat Trump. He was a known commodity with the most name recognition. He wasn’t an unknown or a gay person who could be attacked relentlessly in the rust belt.

Republicans don’t face the same issue. They can rely on their base and due to the advantages the EC provides them, they can win the EC off their base. Even if they lose the popular vote by millions, as long as they lock up 270 EC votes, they win.
 
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@fishonjazz it should also be noted that Republicans turned against democracy once Obama won re-election. Now, they don’t give a **** if Russian helps their candidate win or if their candidate starts an insurrection. They just want to win.

A black man being elected did that.

 
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