The Knicks are at the Cross Section of Hope and Desperation

[Handlogten's Heros]

Listened to Andy's pod this morning and been thinking about all the **** with Donovan and the Knicks over the years. I think the Knicks are at a critical moment here and it is time to pounce.

They have a little hope based on what they built during the 2020 season and based on RJ being okay... they were obviously a huge disappointment and based on how picks in the late lotto have gone for them I am not sure they think internal development and whatever prospect they get will work. There is also some desperation to get something done, but have no cap space... also you have national media types straight telling Donovan "don't go there". If they don't get Donovan who are they going to get? They have so many eggs in that basket... the CAA ties... Bryant... ****ing World Wide Wes was with Randle at the first playoff game (which got some of the Jazz brass attention apparently). They want Donovan bad right now... would they want him as bad in a year if they are again mediocre and maybe Dolan is kicking the CAA guys to the curb? What if he has a mediocre or just average year? What if they realize they can't get Donovan and give away some of the assets they could give us in a trade.

How desperate are they? Would they give up all the draft capital for Donovan... say they pick at #11 on draft night and then give us their 23,25,27,29 picks unprotected... as well as the lotto protected Dallas pick they own... six picks for Donovan... look at the Knicks track record and you can guess that half of those become lotto picks at least... one unfortunate injury and you might be looking at a few HIGH picks in that mix. Are they desperate enough to give out pick swaps in between? The thunder got SGA and complete control of the Clips picks for as long as they could at the time. I think its a fair comp (kind of).... but the devil is that OKC bet against the Clips... we are betting against NY... huge difference there. NY has made the playoffs 2 in 10 years... the 10 years before 3 times. Hell even in the Clips case they are giving up a lotto pick this year when they surely thought those early picks would be late firsts.

I just think the Knicks are at a critical point here to take a seriously wild swing and might push all in... we need to be ready to push them that way.

 

[kcgar]

I agree with pretty much everything about this. I think I would look at what young players and draft assets we could get from other teams first, obviously. But, if this is the best option then absolutely I am in. Donovan's values is only going to go down in my opinion, because he is going to have to go even more hero ball with less defense going forward.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I agree with pretty much everything about this. I think I would look at what young players and draft assets we could get from other teams first, obviously. But, if this is the best option then absolutely I am in. Donovan's values is only going to go down in my opinion, because he is going to have to go even more hero ball with less defense going forward.

I definitely think they would give the most to get him... would certainly hear out other offers. I think they can convince themselves Donovan is the guy and he will get the FA parade coming to NY and push "all-in". I think if they land a top 4 pick the push will be even stronger from NY... then Danny just needs to keep getting them to add to the pile and you end up getting a mega haul.

 

[KqWIN]

I don't necessarily disagree with anything said here. If the Knicks (or anyone else) offer the godfather package you take it. Problem is that even if there are 29 godfather offers available, the Jazz won't realistically deal Don unless he asks for it.

I also still differ in trade strategy. I guess our main difference is that whether we should take the best offer we can get now or try to drag it out and milk out more assets from NYK. I'm much more willing to let NYK collapse on themselves and become more desperate to give the AD-Godfather type package NOP got by waiting. I feel like that situation is more relevant than the OKC-LAC situation where it could only happen in that exact point in time because of the Kawhi situation.

 

[Avery]

If Knicks offered me five picks for Donovan and some salary help like taking on Fournier, I'd do it.

I have zero confidence NY will steer the ship correctly as they haven't for years upon years. I'd bet on those picks landing in the lottery.

 

[Elizah Huge]

The best part of this is you let them keep Barrett which means we need Toppin, Quickley and all the picks.

 

[jom2003]

Trade Conley for Randle straight up. Fight fire with fire

 

[infection]

We'd do it but you know who won't? Ownership. We'd rather drag this out, have it fall apart, and lose Donovan anyway.

 

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

I think the Jazz will trade Gobert opportunistically to a team that is more desperate than we are and who is willing to reach. If you look at the haul that NOLA got for Jrue Holliday and even the deal that Orlando got for Vucevic, I could see the Jazz find suitors who will overpay for Rudy, whether that's Portland who needs to make a run with Dame, Golden State who is trying to reignite their dynasty one last time, Charlotte who wants to be relevant, or Brooklyn who has a couple more good years with KD.

Donovan is trickier. Trading him now would be a bit premature, especially if Donovan himself doesn't demand out. If the Knicks move up into the top 4 of this draft and can offer Jaden Ivey or Jabari Smith, that's a good start. I'd need an All Star or star prospect as the centerpiece of a trade proposal. A basket of picks alone doesn't do it for me.

OKC got a haul for Paul George, but their rebuild is going slowly. So far they've only been able to trade a couple mid-late 1sts to move up in the draft to take Poku. They tanked a year ago and only got Josh Giddey to show for it.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Trade Conley for Randle straight up. Fight fire with fire

Randle sucks and I want no part of him.

 

[LoPo]

Randle sucks and I want no part of him.

Randle is fine as the 2nd or 3rd guy. As the #1 guy, he's a nightmare.

Sent from my SM-A516U using JazzFanz mobile app

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I don't necessarily disagree with anything said here. If the Knicks (or anyone else) offer the godfather package you take it. Problem is that even if there are 29 godfather offers available, the Jazz won't realistically deal Don unless he asks for it.

I also still differ in trade strategy. I guess our main difference is that whether we should take the best offer we can get now or try to drag it out and milk out more assets from NYK. I'm much more willing to let NYK collapse on themselves and become more desperate to give the AD-Godfather type package NOP got by waiting. I feel like that situation is more relevant than the OKC-LAC situation where it could only happen in that exact point in time because of the Kawhi situation.

The AD situation is likely a better comp I agree. In part because of the agency stuff and that I think it could be more antagonistic than the Clips/Thunder deal.

If NY is offering a lot I do think it would be coordinated that Donovan requests out. I think ownership would hesitate but I am hoping Ainge is still a murderer. I just think it you poked around this situation enough it could get really juicey. I don't see an in season trade as a possibility because it would be so much worse if they are concerned about AS game... which they are.

The benefits of doing it now (if offered) are getting to use the 2022 pick on the player you want. There is also the chance that player is good and if the Knicks took them they may offer that player up in the trade but less future stuff because there is more certain value. That could reverse as well. From what I understand 2023 is a pretty good draft (that can change) but I would value getting a top 5 pick this year as well.

The risks are Donovan injury or just that the Knicks get tired of waiting and offer up the package they would have given to you for Bradley Beal or some other player. Then you may have a less aggressive offer from another team at year end. Like say the Lakers traded for someone other than AD then what do the Pelicans end up getting for him? IF the offer is there take it.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Randle is fine as the 2nd or 3rd guy. As the #1 guy, he's a nightmare.

Sent from my SM-A516U using JazzFanz mobile app

Might be worse as the 2nd or 3rd guy... what does he do without the ball that makes you better?

They were worlds better this year with Toppin on the court instead of him... the on/off stuff is damning. He had an outlier shooting season in a year where arenas were empty. It was a total fluke. His contract is awful. His fit on our roster might be even worse... no thanks.

 

[LoPo]

Might be worse as the 2nd or 3rd guy... what does he do without the ball that makes you better?

They were worlds better this year with Toppin on the court instead of him... the on/off stuff is damning. He had an outlier shooting season in a year where arenas were empty. It was a total fluke. His contract is awful. His fit on our roster might be even worse... no thanks.

I'm not saying for us necessarily. He had a bad year on a team without any weapons. Guarding Randle is extremely difficult. Guarding Randle when he has nobody around him isn't that difficult.

 

[KqWIN]

The AD situation is likely a better comp I agree. In part because of the agency stuff and that I think it could be more antagonistic than the Clips/Thunder deal.

If NY is offering a lot I do think it would be coordinated that Donovan requests out. I think ownership would hesitate but I am hoping Ainge is still a murderer. I just think it you poked around this situation enough it could get really juicey. I don't see an in season trade as a possibility because it would be so much worse if they are concerned about AS game... which they are.

The benefits of doing it now (if offered) are getting to use the 2022 pick on the player you want. There is also the chance that player is good and if the Knicks took them they may offer that player up in the trade but less future stuff because there is more certain value. That could reverse as well. From what I understand 2023 is a pretty good draft (that can change) but I would value getting a top 5 pick this year as well.

The risks are Donovan injury or just that the Knicks get tired of waiting and offer up the package they would have given to you for Bradley Beal or some other player. Then you may have a less aggressive offer from another team at year end. Like say the Lakers traded for someone other than AD then what do the Pelicans end up getting for him? IF the offer is there take it.

I tend to believe that the more time passes, the more desperate the buyers will get and they're more likely to answer demands than they are to lower their offer. I'm skeptical on Ainge, but if there was ever a "fk you give us more" guy it's him. That's what he's known for. If NYK is calling everyday, I'm saying they need to find a better package because they don't have enough. Maybe they tank next season and set up a Wiggins for Love type deal....who knows, that could happen this year if NYK wins the lottery this year. If you believe in conspiracies that could be a thing.

I'm not in a hurry to get a draft pick or tank, but I get the desire to do so. I'm just not as concerned about the injury risks or Don's trade value decreasing. I want to play ball in a negotiation for once. The Jazz have been horrible at negotiating in recent history. Whether that's incoming FA's, retaining their own players, or in trades...the Jazz have not come away with good value.

 

[LoPo]

@Handlogten's Heros

I'm not opposed to the idea of Mitchell to NY, but I think it comes down to two major factors:

#1 - Don has to want out

#2 - NY would have to get in the top 4 this year

NY lacks a great player to send back so they would have to have a big pick.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I'm not saying for us necessarily. He had a bad year on a team without any weapons. Guarding Randle is extremely difficult. Guarding Randle when he has nobody around him isn't that difficult.

Doesn't play defense, doesn't space the floor... if he isn't the first or second option on offense you ain't getting much out of him. He's the classic looter in a riot guy that gets over-rated. Swindled the Knicks out of $100M before they even had to pay him. If they want to give up a pick and Randle for Conley I'd consider it but I don't see him as some great bet to start shooting it well again. He pouted and was an issue in the locker room after taking the bag.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I tend to believe that the more time passes, the more desperate the buyers will get and they're more likely to answer demands than they are to lower their offer. I'm skeptical on Ainge, but if there was ever a "fk you give us more" guy it's him. That's what he's known for. If NYK is calling everyday, I'm saying they need to find a better package because they don't have enough. Maybe they tank next season and set up a Wiggins for Love type deal....who knows, that could happen this year if NYK wins the lottery this year. If you believe in conspiracies that could be a thing.

I'm not in a hurry to get a draft pick or tank, but I get the desire to do so. I'm just not as concerned about the injury risks or Don's trade value decreasing. I want to play ball in a negotiation for once. The Jazz have been horrible at negotiating in recent history. Whether that's incoming FA's, retaining their own players, or in trades...the Jazz have not come away with good value.

Would be nice to get 150% in a trade instead of giving up good seconds for Cold Matthew.

 

[LoPo]

Doesn't play defense, doesn't space the floor... if he isn't the first or second option on offense you ain't getting much out of him. He's the classic looter in a riot guy that gets over-rated. Swindled the Knicks out of $100M before they even had to pay him. If they want to give up a pick and Randle for Conley I'd consider it but I don't see him as some great bet to start shooting it well again. He pouted and was an issue in the locker room after taking the bag.

I don't know. That Knicks roster is very, very poor. No great defenders and no real offensive threats. You can't win like that.

Randle would be fine playing with a more complete roster. As a small ball center, he can dominate. Sure, he's not a great defender, but he's not a Bertans.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

@Handlogten's Heros

I'm not opposed to the idea of Mitchell to NY, but I think it comes down to two major factors:

#1 - Don has to want out

#2 - NY would have to get in the top 4 this year

NY lacks a great player to send back so they would have to have a big pick.

There is wanting out and demanding out... I think if you gave him truth serum and said where would you like to be in 18 months he'd say not Utah.

I would prefer the top 4 pick I think, but the absence of that pick would mean you could ask for everything else unprotected... i think you might be able to get the top 4 pick and a couple others unprotected and maybe the Dallas pick... and I'd take that. It isn't a deal killer for me because I think it would lead to them paying more in other ways that might have more upside. I like the draft this year but at #4 I think there is a drop off... if I could get Smith I'd be super excited.