Culture of winning or tank?

[framer]

I hope you also remember that the biggest reason we were good again soon after than is because we got the #3 pick and drafted deron williams.


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We did not have the #3 pick. We used assets to trade up to the #3 pick.

 

[framer]

2

Toronto and Detroit.

Also Dallas, the original Miami championship, and Milwaukee.

 

[idiot]

Since the NBA changed its lottery order, these are the guys I'd feel most likely to lead their current (drafted-by) team to a championship as the best player (in rough order from most to least likely) as well as the (pre-lottery) finish of the team that picked them (1 = worst record). (I'm giving a lot of benefit of the doubt to guys on the bottom half of the list.):

• Ja Morant - 8
• Zion Williamson - 7
• Evan Mobley - 5
• Anthony Edwards - 3
• Scottie Barnes -7
• Cade Cunningham - 2
• Paolo Banchero - 2
• RJ Barrett - 1
• Darius Garland - 2
• Jalen Green - 1
• Josh Giddy - 4
• Chet Holmgren - 2
• Keegan Murray - 7

Tell me again why a seventh-worst finish this year is the kiss of death which will consign us to years of mediocrity that we cannot pull ourselves out of. The randomness of the current draft odds mean that there's a lot that teams simply can't control.

 

[Thee Idiotic Minivan K]

He was supposed to fly out for an interview and the Jazz canceled on him because they secured Boozer. He wouldn't have been flying to Utah if there wasn't interest.

Taking that flight tells his former team he means business

 

[bopahull]

The Spurs didn't tank to get Duncan. Their best player got hurt, didn't play most of the year, and their other good players fell off a cliff in production.

On the flip side, the team that did tank for Duncan, the Celtics, didn't get him.

The Spurs didn't officially tank, they just kept a totally healthy Robinson (he was injured early in the season) out for a good month and a half at the end of the season even though he was practicing with the team.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Since the NBA changed its lottery order, these are the guys I'd feel most likely to lead their current (drafted-by) team to a championship as the best player (in rough order from most to least likely) as well as the (pre-lottery) finish of the team that picked them (1 = worst record). (I'm giving a lot of benefit of the doubt to guys on the bottom half of the list.):

• Ja Morant - 8
• Zion Williamson - 7
• Evan Mobley - 5
• Anthony Edwards - 3
• Scottie Barnes -7
• Cade Cunningham - 2
• Paolo Banchero - 2
• RJ Barrett - 1
• Darius Garland - 2
• Jalen Green - 1
• Josh Giddy - 4
• Chet Holmgren - 2
• Keegan Murray - 7

Tell me again why a seventh-worst finish this year is the kiss of death which will consign us to years of mediocrity that we cannot pull ourselves out of. The randomness of the current draft odds mean that there's a lot that teams simply can't control.

It’s not the kiss of death… it just means the odds are much worse… you did the homework now do the math… it’s not randomness it’s just ****ing math.

 

[Ben10]

Agreed but I really think you need a top 10 player to win a ring in today's NBA. Anunoby, Siakam, Van Vleet, Lowry, Gasol were all scrappy players but they don't win it all without Kawhi.

And Kawhi was a 15th pick in the draft. For all the talk about having to get a top 5 pick it seems like most of the Champions outside Lebron’s teams best player wasn’t picked in the top 5. Curry #7, Klay #11, Draymond second Round. Gannis was picked in the teens. Middleton wasn’t a high pick.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

And Kawhi was a 15th pick in the draft. For all the talk about having to get a top 5 pick it seems like most of the Champions outside Lebron’s teams best player wasn’t picked in the top 5. Curry #7, Klay #11, Draymond second Round. Gannis was picked in the teens. Middleton wasn’t a high pick.

Warriors had KD and also Wiggins last year. There was a Duncan guy that was pretty good… Shaq played at the same time and he won a few… Miami had Lebron but also Wade won without him.

Giannis has one, Kawhi won one without Duncan, Steph wouldn’t have as many without KD… top 5 picks do pretty well.

 

[Ben10]

Warriors had KD and also Wiggins last year. There was a Duncan guy that was pretty good… Shaq played at the same time and he won a few… Miami had Lebron but also Wade won without him.

Giannis has one, Kawhi won one without Duncan, Steph wouldn’t have as many without KD… top 5 picks do pretty well.

Of course top 5 picks do pretty well. Shaq as on the down hill when he won with Wade. And Wade was a #5 pick. So still not a have to tank like crazy pick to get. Wiggins was good but not even close to the best players on the team. The point was you don’t have to pick in the top 5 to get a great player. Our 2 all stars weren’t top 10 picks. The last 2 MVP’s weren’t top 10 picks. The Jazz currently have 3 guys that went in the top 7 in their draft and we are considered a bottom 5 team in the league.
Most of us believe that if we would have drafted well. Taken the guys that were available at our pick we would have had a real shot at a title the last 3 years. (Bains, McDaniels, so on). Plus we could have taken Kawai, Gannis with our picks when they were drafted. Point is you don’t have to have a top pick to win. Does it help and make it easier sure. But it’s not required.

Speaking of top picks isn’t our pick in 2024 top 10 protected?

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Of course top 5 picks do pretty well. Shaq as on the down hill when he won with Wade. And Wade was a #5 pick. So still not a have to tank like crazy pick to get. Wiggins was good but not even close to the best players on the team. The point was you don’t have to pick in the top 5 to get a great player. Our 2 all stars weren’t top 10 picks. The last 2 MVP’s weren’t top 10 picks. The Jazz currently have 3 guys that went in the top 7 in their draft and we are considered a bottom 5 team in the league.
Most of us believe that if we would have drafted well. Taken the guys that were available at our pick we would have had a real shot at a title the last 3 years. (Bains, McDaniels, so on). Plus we could have taken Kawai, Gannis with our picks when they were drafted. Point is you don’t have to have a top pick to win. Does it help and make it easier sure. But it’s not required.

Speaking of top picks isn’t our pick in 2024 top 10 protected?

Shaq won titles before Wade… which is what I was referring to more than the Wade title.

You can have a couple outliers for sure… your best bet at a title is getting top 10 ( preferably top 5) talents… those guys are overwhelmingly drafted in the top 5.

 

[prodigy]

I remember a few years back when we were playing the memphis grizzlies and they were tanking and marc gasol was having a monster game and they were in danger of beating us. So they sat marc gasol on the bench for the entire 4th quarter lol.

I remember that game that was some next level tanking because Gasol was cooking us.

 

[Ben10]

Shaq won titles before Wade… which is what I was referring to more than the Wade title.

You can have a couple outliers for sure… your best bet at a title is getting top 10 ( preferably top 5) talents… those guys are overwhelmingly drafted in the top 5.

I don’t disagree with what you are saying here at all. My point is you have to draft well with the pick you end up with. Off ESPN’s top 12 players in the league right now only 1 was a #1 pick. 2 guys that went second. And 5 guys that were picked outside the top 10. So while 7 out of the 12 are in the top 10 that’s still over 40% of the 12 best players being picked out side of the top 10. And if you throw in that Steph went outside the top 5 that means half of the top 12 best players were picked outside the top 5 picks

 

[framer]

Since the NBA changed its lottery order, these are the guys I'd feel most likely to lead their current (drafted-by) team to a championship as the best player (in rough order from most to least likely) as well as the (pre-lottery) finish of the team that picked them (1 = worst record). (I'm giving a lot of benefit of the doubt to guys on the bottom half of the list.):

• Ja Morant - 8
• Zion Williamson - 7
• Evan Mobley - 5
• Anthony Edwards - 3
• Scottie Barnes -7
• Cade Cunningham - 2
• Paolo Banchero - 2
• RJ Barrett - 1
• Darius Garland - 2
• Jalen Green - 1
• Josh Giddy - 4
• Chet Holmgren - 2
• Keegan Murray - 7

Tell me again why a seventh-worst finish this year is the kiss of death which will consign us to years of mediocrity that we cannot pull ourselves out of. The randomness of the current draft odds mean that there's a lot that teams simply can't control.

Wait, I just realized that you had RJ Barrett in this list. Solid work outside of that. . .

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I don’t disagree with what you are saying here at all. My point is you have to draft well with the pick you end up with. Off ESPN’s top 12 players in the league right now only 1 was a #1 pick. 2 guys that went second. And 5 guys that were picked outside the top 10. So while 7 out of the 12 are in the top 10 that’s still over 40% of the 12 best players being picked out side of the top 10. And if you throw in that Steph went outside the top 5 that means half of the top 12 best players were picked outside the top 5 picks

You do have to draft well… picking higher in the draft gives you a much higher chance at drafting well. The rate of success in finding an all star in the top 4 of a draft is just so much higher than outside the top 10. Being bad means we get a better chance at landing in that top 4 . While we have a lot of picks coming down the road… not many of them if any will be lotto picks… maybe some in the teens. The rate at which you hit outside the top 15 or so is waaay lower. GS had Steph but also hit a home run on Klay in the lotto and got a solid player in Barnes in the lotto. I’m not sure we have a ton of lotto picks coming… so this particular pick this year is really important. Landing the 8/9th pick could be fairly catastrophic and suffering through a 35 win season versus a 25 win season isn’t much different.

Trust the math… doubling your odds is very much a good thing and while we could get lucky it’s better to control what we can.

 

[Eddie Zero]

You do have to draft well… picking higher in the draft gives you a much higher chance at drafting well. The rate of success in finding an all star in the top 4 of a draft is just so much higher than outside the top 10. Being bad means we get a better chance at landing in that top 4 . While we have a lot of picks coming down the road… not many of them if any will be lotto picks… maybe some in the teens. The rate at which you hit outside the top 15 or so is waaay lower. GS had Steph but also hit a home run on Klay in the lotto and got a solid player in Barnes in the lotto. I’m not sure we have a ton of lotto picks coming… so this particular pick this year is really important. Landing the 8/9th pick could be fairly catastrophic and suffering through a 35 win season versus a 25 win season isn’t much different.

Trust the math… doubling your odds is very much a good thing and while we could get lucky it’s better to control what we can.

3 firsts means they can easily trade 2 to move up for a certain player late lottery or better even after they pick in the lottery if they tank down the stretch. Danny has a decent record of drafting well and has proven capable of fleecing other gm's. I don't think this team even has to tank with this gm running things.
Give me Victor on a lottery luck move up from 10th to 1st as impoosible as it will be, if it meant a 22-23 team with one season of competetive Hardy team ball, that slowly increased playing time for future core players like Ocahi over sliding to 5th or 6th from 3 or 4, after having one of the worst records in the NBA all because the team played garbage basketball with no direction and had no leadership of coaching at all.
If they want to tank for Victor imo, they have to fire Hardy.
Decent players from the draft its not hard to find one even at 41.
Getting the elite of the draft is based on more than luck anyway.
There are way too many Ben Simmons or worse Marvin Bagleys or even worse Josh Jacksons and Victor or Scoot could be just as bad

 

[David Hume]

One glance from an attractive co-worker and half of y’all wanna wreck the family and lose the house over it.

Young ladies with attractive forms can possess a man’s mind in rather obsessional manners. The man in question shall think of the woman’s curves, her smile, and he shall speculate wildly about the form of her body that lies concealed beneath proper clothing. Lo, if there is lotion by the bedside, he has thoughts of a young maiden.

 

[Ben10]

You do have to draft well… picking higher in the draft gives you a much higher chance at drafting well. The rate of success in finding an all star in the top 4 of a draft is just so much higher than outside the top 10. Being bad means we get a better chance at landing in that top 4 . While we have a lot of picks coming down the road… not many of them if any will be lotto picks… maybe some in the teens. The rate at which you hit outside the top 15 or so is waaay lower. GS had Steph but also hit a home run on Klay in the lotto and got a solid player in Barnes in the lotto. I’m not sure we have a ton of lotto picks coming… so this particular pick this year is really important. Landing the 8/9th pick could be fairly catastrophic and suffering through a 35 win season versus a 25 win season isn’t much different.

Trust the math… doubling your odds is very much a good thing and while we could get lucky it’s better to control what we can.

Again I agree with what your saying. But at the same time I really enjoyed watching the last 2 games knowing that it didn’t matter if we lost but loving the fact that we won while playing a really fun to watch style. So I’m not going to be upset if they keep playing this way. My point was not all hope of getting a great player is lost if we don’t have the worst record in the league. 50% of the 20 best players in the NBA right now were not picked in the top 5.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Again I agree with what your saying. But at the same time I really enjoyed watching the last 2 games knowing that it didn’t matter if we lost but loving the fact that we won while playing a really fun to watch style. So I’m not going to be upset if they keep playing this way. My point was not all hope of getting a great player is lost if we don’t have the worst record in the league. 50% of the 20 best players in the NBA right now were not picked in the top 5.

That provides no comfort to me… none. So a top 5 pick has 5x chance of becoming a top 20 player than other first round picks… roughly. Unless you get THEE GUY… then you need a couple guys in the top 20ish… all isn’t lost… but it can really **** up the next 5-10 years to win 10 more fee good games than you should.

 

[framer]

You do have to draft well… picking higher in the draft gives you a much higher chance at drafting well. The rate of success in finding an all star in the top 4 of a draft is just so much higher than outside the top 10. Being bad means we get a better chance at landing in that top 4 . While we have a lot of picks coming down the road… not many of them if any will be lotto picks… maybe some in the teens. The rate at which you hit outside the top 15 or so is waaay lower. GS had Steph but also hit a home run on Klay in the lotto and got a solid player in Barnes in the lotto. I’m not sure we have a ton of lotto picks coming… so this particular pick this year is really important. Landing the 8/9th pick could be fairly catastrophic and suffering through a 35 win season versus a 25 win season isn’t much different.

Trust the math… doubling your odds is very much a good thing and while we could get lucky it’s better to control what we can.

I'm not convinced we aren't going to absolutely FEAST on those Wolves picks and swap. I never saw a world where KAT is going to be OK as the third best player on the team. Two games in and it looks like KAT can't live in that world. And as prickly as Donovan was to Rudy, Rudy hasn't seen anything like the KATTY tantrum that is brewing.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

3 firsts means they can easily trade 2 to move up for a certain player late lottery or better even after they pick in the lottery if they tank down the stretch. Danny has a decent record of drafting well and has proven capable of fleecing other gm's. I don't think this team even has to tank with this gm running things.
Give me Victor on a lottery luck move up from 10th to 1st as impoosible as it will be, if it meant a 22-23 team with one season of competetive Hardy team ball, that slowly increased playing time for future core players like Ocahi over sliding to 5th or 6th from 3 or 4, after having one of the worst records in the NBA all because the team played garbage basketball with no direction and had no leadership of coaching at all.
If they want to tank for Victor imo, they have to fire Hardy.
Decent players from the draft its not hard to find one even at 41.
Getting the elite of the draft is based on more than luck anyway.
There are way too many Ben Simmons or worse Marvin Bagleys or even worse Josh Jacksons and Victor or Scoot could be just as bad

Not really… in many drafts and likely this one you won’t be able to do that. It’s usually gonna cost 3 firsts to move into that range… like 15/20 can move you up to 10ish based on history… but sometimes you can offer 4-5 first and not move up… just like the Justise Winslow draft. So it’s not easy.

If it’s all luck teams should just trade those top 5 picks… picking out a few busts and stating it’s “luck” is dumb.