Trade Rumors Involving the Jazz

[Saint Cy of JFC]

I’m sick of this he has potential crap!! Defense transitions from college to pros quite nice. It’s one of those things if you have it you have it. Players rarely improve if you come in a **** defender. Bones is the ********* of defenders I’ve ever seen, I’d believe Sexton would improve before bones. It is shocking how much you hate Sexton but like Bones






IDIOT!!

Agree to an extent. If you come in as a bad defender you are likely always going to be a bad defender. But there are degrees to it and you can certainly push it closer to average.

Plus there is the whole issue of versatility defensively. Having a 6'9 wingspan and 8'5 reach just makes you a much more versatile defender than a guy with a 6'6 wingspan and 8' reach

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

It's not just responding to you specifically but everyone. I feel like a lot of people like to misconstrue/straw man stances so they are easier to argue against.

I’m fine with the idea that you can trade JV for him but it’s the idea you think he is currently a better player than Collin… it’s laughably bad. He’s also one of the last types of players we need. Go get a different version of a combo guard that clearly doesn’t address the need for more playmaking or perimeter defense. If we didn’t have like two of our current crop of combo guards then maybe… but we are unlikely to move two of them so where does the development time come from. There are just many more targets I’d pursue over Bones with the Vando trade chip… including a good second round pick

 

[HermanG]

I really havent watched Bones enough to call this either way.... but I went checking around Denver boards and they dont hate the guy. Some of them actually have a lot of faith in him and think he is great whenever they make him the primary ballhandler for a stretch. No one tries to defend his defense though, and that clearly is the biggest deficiency about him.

They seem to have mixed feelings about him being shopped.. and while its easy to find the "I'm sad to see this" type of comments, the "good riddance" comments are much harder to find.

Its a moot point to discuss the potential trade though for various reasons:
1) I dont think we have that defensive guy Denver is looking for in our roster
2) Our focus has been on forwards this whole season, so I doubt we try to work into a 3 way for him either
3) Our bench is crowded with young guards albeit Bones might be more of a PG than any of our current ones... its not like he is a pass first field general type either

 

[HeatCheck]

I'll come out and say it Bones is just a very low IQ player. Highly doubt the Jazz would force Coach Hardy to work with that let alone spend a single real asset to acquire him. As it is I'm fairly certain they are sorry they made that THT trade too. You can't fix stupid. Bones is on the trade block in Denver because their coach has no patience for stupidity.

Ainge is already trying to purge the roster of guys who Hardy doesn't like which is a reason they are all on the trade block.

The Jazz are keeping the high IQ good players in Lauri, Kessler, and Agbaji. Ochai isn't as talented but a high intelligent 4 year college guy who can fit in Hardy's system. You could throw Conley and KO into this bucket too but they are too old to be part of this core moving forward.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

I ask the question because I’ve used it a lot lately and while I was using it last night to confirm the confirmation bias I have with Immanuel Quickley (would be a killer lead guard for our young team IMO. Can’t wait to have that torn apart…) I looked up Bones, and you know how that went right?

So do you put stock in those advanced stats? Honest question.

*Id also rather have IQ than Bones for the record*

I do put stock into advanced stats, maybe more than most? I would say I use it more to find things tho than to confirm things. Like "oh this guy has a really good X stat, let me look closer"

I just think Bones is a good guy to test out. He's on a rookie deal for two more years and he has special offensive talent that he can't fully show in Denver. I've said multiple times I'd rather have other things, but I simply just don't think Vanderbilt has much value to most teams.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

I'll come out and say it Bones is just a very low IQ player. Highly doubt the Jazz would force Coach Hardy to work with that let alone spend a single real asset to acquire him. As it is I'm fairly certain they are sorry they made that THT trade too. You can't fix stupid. Bones is on the trade block in Denver because their coach has no patience for stupidity.

Ainge is already trying to purge the roster of guys who Hardy doesn't like which is a reason they are all on the trade block.

The Jazz are keeping the high IQ good players in Lauri, Kessler, and Agbaji. Ochai isn't as talented but a high intelligent 4 year college guy who can fit in Hardy's system. You could throw Conley and KO into this bucket too but they are too old to be part of this core moving forward.

I actually think Bones has good IQ, but he also has gunner mentality for sure. I think he is able to read the game fast and make good reads, especially in ball screens. I think he'd be a great fit offensively with Hardy. Look at what Hardy has done for Clarkson.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

I really havent watched Bones enough to call this either way.... but I went checking around Denver boards and they dont hate the guy. Some of them actually have a lot of faith in him and think he is great whenever they make him the primary ballhandler for a stretch. No one tries to defend his defense though, and that clearly is the biggest deficiency about him.

They seem to have mixed feelings about him being shopped.. and while its easy to find the "I'm sad to see this" type of comments, the "good riddance" comments are much harder to find.

Its a moot point to discuss the potential trade though for various reasons:
1) I dont think we have that defensive guy Denver is looking for in our roster
2) Our focus has been on forwards this whole season, so I doubt we try to work into a 3 way for him either
3) Our bench is crowded with young guards albeit Bones might be more of a PG than any of our current ones... its not like he is a pass first field general type either

Beggars cant be choosers.

Denver has very few avenues to add defense. They have no bad contracts to match salary for a more highly paid player. The Nuggets can form plenty of lineups with 4 shooters + Vando, so I think they are in a position to optimize him better than most teams.

Would I rather have a young talented forward? Hell yeah, but you cant just manifest those players. We probably have to draft them.

 

[Jaanipoeg]

As I see it, Bones Hyland is a top 5 name in the league currently. I know Bones is a nickname, but it's still badass. I can't think of the last time the Jazz had that distinction on their roster.

 

[HermanG]

Beggars cant be choosers.

Denver has very few avenues to add defense. They have no bad contracts to match salary for a more highly paid player. The Nuggets can form plenty of lineups with 4 shooters + Vando, so I think they are in a position to optimize him better than most teams.

Would I rather have a young talented forward? Hell yeah, but you cant just manifest those players. We probably have to draft them.

I agree about most of that.

However as you also pointed out, adding a forward is a better move to balance the roster right now. But the move you are talking subtracts one. I personally want Lauri to play maximum minutes at SF instead of PF.. on both ends. I think that is best for his development tbh.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

I agree about most of that.

However as you also pointed out, adding a forward is a better move to balance the roster right now. But the move you are talking subtracts one. I personally want Lauri to play maximum minutes at SF instead of PF.. on both ends. I think that is best for his development tbh.

Completely disagree with this.

Lauri's best surrounded by spacing. He's is going to have to play with WK because WK has shown he has the talent that warrants big minutes. You just cant play another non-spacer with WK, especially a low-skill non-spacer. Lauri's also needs to play more 5 minutes, lineups where he is surrounded by 4 skilled players, to develop dangerous offensive lineups.

And the fact is after this year Vando is on the final year of his contract then becomes a UFA. He isnt going to re-sign to the Jazz to be a 20 mpg backup, or at least the Jazz wont pay what it takes to keep him in that role.

 

[HermanG]

Completely disagree with this.

Lauri's best surrounded by spacing. He's is going to have to play with WK because WK has shown he has the talent that warrants big minutes. You just cant play another non-spacer with WK, especially a low-skill non-spacer. Lauri's also needs to play more 5 minutes, lineups where he is surrounded by 4 skilled players, to develop dangerous offensive lineups.

And the fact is after this year Vando is on the final year of his contract then becomes a UFA. He isnt going to re-sign to the Jazz to be a 20 mpg backup, or at least the Jazz wont pay what it takes to keep him in that role.

Completely disagree with what? Lauri playing more SF? Adding a forward is a better move than subtracting one?

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

As I see it, Bones Hyland is a top 5 name in the league currently. I know Bones is a nickname, but it's still badass. I can't think of the last time the Jazz had that distinction on their roster.

Just go sign Smush Parker to a two way or some ****… I ain’t here for the nicknames.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I know it was 5 minutes but he was atrocious on both sides of the ball… missed a rotation… went too far off of CJ… dribbled the air out of the ball and put up bad shots. His one assist was simply throwing an entry pass to Jeff green who dribbles and shot over Alvarado… he was very obviously benched last night after his terrible performance… after the game a report comes out that he wants to go somewhere where he has a larger role.

Sounds like a guy we totally would want here… performs like garbage and wants a bigger role… real winner **** there.

 

[LogGrad98]

I think prime MJ might do it, but only if the Knicks don’t have the leverage. And we all know they’d have the leverage

 

[LogGrad98]

The confirmation bias I most often see on the board is in game threads when posters only look for the good for player's they like and only look for the bad for player's they dislike. In reality all players do a mix of good or bad in every game, but for the player they like they focus on the 40% of the shots they make vs the player they dislike they focus on the 60% of the shots that they miss (as an example).

As far as statistics, I think it's important to differentiate between black box statistics like RAPTOR, LEBRON, etc. and statistics based on known calculations. If the statistics are based on known calculations, it should be possible to understand the context in which they support/refute an argument for or against an opinion about a player. Whether a person likes or dislikes a player is obviously subjective, but there are so many ways to objectively evaluate players with stats based on known calculations, that we don't need to cry confirmation bias every time statistics are used.

Well if that 40% is from the 3 point line, that is elite. Man I wish I could fail 60% of the time and even keep my job, let alone make millions playing a game.

 

[LogGrad98]

To be more precise, here is the full progression flow of confirmation bias:
1) Form an opinion based on eye ball test or gut feeling
2) Find a stat or stats to support your opinion (CONFIRMED)
3) If #2 fails, find an advance stat or stats to support your opinion (remember all lineup variations!!!) (CONFIRMED)
4) If #2 and #3 fail, find an "expert" that supports your opinion (CONFIRMED)
5) If #2-#4 fail, seriously, find any random dude from the internet who supports your opinion (CONFIRMED)
6) If #2-#5 fail, you should really trust your gut anyways (CONFIRMED)

Veteran posters can skip phases 2-5.

#5 is the entire reason why twitter even exists.

 

[LogGrad98]

Question: is RAPTOR and WAR RAPTOR considered advanced stats?

They are advanced stats describing groups of other advanced stats. Very meta. But also pretty reasonably effective in describing impact on the court, as it pulls from multiple other stats, not just 1 or 2.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Completely disagree with what? Lauri playing more SF? Adding a forward is a better move than subtracting one?

The idea that we should be playing Lauri as a 3. That's a terrible terrible terrible terrible, cant really say it enough, idea.

 

[HermanG]

The idea that we should be playing Lauri as a 3. That's a terrible terrible terrible terrible, cant really say it enough, idea.

Ok.. so the thing Cavs did to truely get him developing in the right direction and the thing we have done with him most of his breakout year is a bad idea? Why?

 

[Korisfani]

Lauri has played most of this season as a 3. On D, he's mostly on 3s. On O, most of his plays are what you'd expect from 3s and even guards (all the pindowns and pops for threes), much less posting up.

Lauri hasn't been 4 x terrible this season.

(When it's Kessler at 5, anyone at 4 obviously can't be a complete non-threat beyond 10 ft.)