Trade Rumors Involving the Jazz

[Handlogten's Heros]

He's out of here in a couple of months either way.

This is not necessarily directed at you so don't take offense.

I love the negative fatalism that consumes so many

"player x will leave"
"we will never sign anyone"
"we won't win the draft lotto"
"even if we win the lotto those players will bust"
"we traded Rudy for some picks in the late 20s"
"the lakers pick we own is guaranteed to be a second rounder"


Here is the deal with JC... go tell me which teams have cap space this summer. Then tell me which ones have interest in a 30 YO shooting guard. If you can't find a spot that is obviously better than Utah then he may stay. If there is a place he'd rather go but they don't have cap space then guess what? That team will have to work a sign and trade with us... so instead of trading him for 5 seconds now... we might get something better than that later... and if not we use the salary slot in a different way now that we have cap space.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

I don’t know why every national media writer and outlet keeps giving us an A for the deal. I’ve been told by 99% of the people on here how bad it was.

Sir they are giving A- while you are saying A++

And when someone pointed you to an Andy Larsen article (a very objective reporter) that was slightly critical of the trade you told them to **** off.

 

[YoungJefe]

Sure... I said we should consider it if NY didn't pony up unprotected picks. Cavs gave us the unprotected picks... If Lauri stayed the Cleveland version of Lauri or the Chicago version of Lauri then the Heat package is still in the ball park. You can't call unprotected Heat picks "crap" and not say the Cav picks aren't "crap" btw.

The Heat were only able to offer their 2023, 2027, and 2029 picks plus a 2028 swap.

Don't think we wanted another 2023 pick and it's significantly more likely that Don opts out and bounces from Cleveland in 2025 than it would've been in Miami. Hell in Miami there's a good chance Pat Riley would've been able to convince someone like Tatum or Ingram to come play with Don / Bam in 2025.

We took on Lauri for 3 yr/$40M and Sexton for 4 yr/$70M, that's less than what we would've had to pay Herro (4 yr/$120M) while also taking on Duncan Robinson (4 yr/$64M), with the latter being viewed as one of the worst contracts in the entire league at this point.

 

[YoungJefe]

This is not necessarily directed at you so don't take offense.

I love the negative fatalism that consumes so many

"player x will leave"
"we will never sign anyone"
"we won't win the draft lotto"
"even if we win the lotto those players will bust"
"we traded Rudy for some picks in the late 20s"
"the lakers pick we own is guaranteed to be a second rounder"

Here is the deal with JC... go tell me which teams have cap space this summer. Then tell me which ones have interest in a 30 YO shooting guard. If you can't find a spot that is obviously better than Utah then he may stay. If there is a place he'd rather go but they don't have cap space then guess what? That team will have to work a sign and trade with us... so instead of trading him for 5 seconds now... we might get something better than that later... and if not we use the salary slot in a different way now that we have cap space.

He looked extremely upset on the bench during last nights game and I'm not sure he's going to jive with the tanking we're about to do ROS.

Does it even make sense for us to give him a sizeable extension considering his age and the fact that he doesn't fit our window?

There's also no guarantee money is all he'll be seeking, maybe he wants to live in a bigger market, maybe he wants to play for a contending team...

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

The Heat were only able to offer their 2023, 2027, and 2029 picks plus a 2028 swap.

Don't think we wanted another 2023 pick and it's significantly more likely that Don opts out and bounces from Cleveland in 2025 than it would've been in Miami. Hell in Miami there's a good chance Pat Riley would've been able to convince someone like Tatum or Ingram to come play with Don / Bam in 2025.

We took on Lauri for 3 yr/$40M and Sexton for 4 yr/$70M, that's less than what we would've had to pay Herro (4 yr/$120M) while also taking on Duncan Robinson (4 yr/$64M), with the latter being viewed as one of the worst contracts in the entire league at this point.

I understand... I also think if Cavs hadn't stepped up and NY wasn't willing to give the unprotected picks we wanted... then the Miami deal was better than rolling into the season with Don. Miami's offer was a C type grade... but better than rolling into the season with Don imo.

The Cavs deal at the time was an A- B+ type deal... but Lauri going supernova has made it an A++ deal.

Same thing can happen with the deal we made for Westbrook. If the LA pick is late lotto that's an A+ deal... if the fact that we lose 5 extra games between now and the end of season and end up at 6 or 7 or top 4 then its an A+ deal fo sho. Or if we are able to sign a free agent it becomes a huge win too.

 

[YoungJefe]

I understand... I also think if Cavs hadn't stepped up and NY wasn't willing to give the unprotected picks we wanted... then the Miami deal was better than rolling into the season with Don. Miami's offer was a C type grade... but better than rolling into the season with Don imo.

The Cavs deal at the time was an A- B+ type deal... but Lauri going supernova has made it an A++ deal.

Same thing can happen with the deal we made for Westbrook. If the LA pick is late lotto that's an A+ deal... if the fact that we lose 5 extra games between now and the end of season and end up at 6 or 7 or top 4 then its an A+ deal fo sho. Or if we are able to sign a free agent it becomes a huge win too.

Any deal that we would've traded Donovan while having to pay Herro/Robinson would've been a worst case scenario, IMO.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

He looked extremely upset on the bench during last nights game and I'm not sure he's going to jive with the tanking we're about to do ROS.

Does it even make sense for us to give him a sizeable extension considering his age and the fact that he doesn't fit our window?

There's also no guarantee money is all he'll be seeking, maybe he wants to live in a bigger market, maybe he wants to play for a contending team...

Okay then I guess he is going to pass up a lot of money to do that. If he is a super sought after FA I would have thought someone would roll out a good enough offer for us to move him now. If he "walks for nothing" and the opportunity cost is 5 second round picks... well then peace out JC.

Everyone was upset... its okay. Its part of the business. Mike is awesome... everyone acting like these guys are toddlers and we just capped their puppy in front of them. If they are upset we traded a couple guys now then something else would have upset them later lol. Trades happen and all these dudes are human doesn't mean they hate the org and don't want to be here.

 

[Jaanipoeg]

So who are on people's watchlist for our new asset: 2023 cap space.

Signing players? Taking on bad contracts for assets? Trading for players into space? I am a little worried that Ainge is looking to be down for 2024, so I could see him targeting bad contracts. He has mentioned the 2024 draft quite a bit and I could see maintaining our 2024 pick being a motivation.

I am still relatively high on Kuzma, Cam Johnson, and Naz Reid. Reid supposedly has been looking for a $10M/year contract extension which he hasn't been able to get from Minnesota. Cam Johnson turned down like a $18M/year contract. Kuzma I don't know what he's looking for because the 120% extension rule kind of ruled out talks. Brooklyn is in an interesting spot with a glut of good 26-30 year old players without a clear direction. I could definitely see Rockets swinging them their picks back for some of Bridges, Dinwiddie, etc. with their picks coming due to OKC

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Any deal that we would've traded Donovan while having to pay Herro/Robinson would've been a worst case scenario, IMO.

Agree to disagree... don't want to re-litigate that but I get it. The alternative Don deals have not aged well because Herro and RJ haven't really shown much if any improvement and those were always kinda baked into the "value".

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

So who are on people's watchlist for our new asset: 2023 cap space.

Signing players? Taking on bad contracts for assets? Trading for players into space? I am a little worried that Ainge is looking to be down for 2024, so I could see him targeting bad contracts. He has mentioned the 2024 draft quite a bit and I could see maintaining our 2024 pick being a motivation.

I am still relatively high on Kuzma, Cam Johnson, and Naz Reid. Reid supposedly has been looking for a $10M/year contract extension which he hasn't been able to get from Minnesota. Cam Johnson turned down like a $18M/year contract. Kuzma I don't know what he's looking for because the 120% extension rule kind of ruled out talks. Brooklyn is in an interesting spot with a glut of good 26-30 year old players without a clear direction. I could definitely see Rockets swinging them their picks back for some of Bridges, Dinwiddie, etc. with their picks coming due to OKC

At some point I will start a new thread on where we go from here... there are a number of guys we could sign and routes we could go... but a lot of the detailed decisions will be predicated on what happens in the draft. Like if we draft a point guard we aren't going to be trying to sign FVV. I don't think we can look BIG ticket FAs but we can do just fine in the upper middle class of FA. Naz and Cam Johnson are guys I would pursue for example.

 

[Jingled]

So who are on people's watchlist for our new asset: 2023 cap space.

Signing players? Taking on bad contracts for assets? Trading for players into space? I am a little worried that Ainge is looking to be down for 2024, so I could see him targeting bad contracts. He has mentioned the 2024 draft quite a bit and I could see maintaining our 2024 pick being a motivation.

I am still relatively high on Kuzma, Cam Johnson, and Naz Reid. Reid supposedly has been looking for a $10M/year contract extension which he hasn't been able to get from Minnesota. Cam Johnson turned down like a $18M/year contract. Kuzma I don't know what he's looking for because the 120% extension rule kind of ruled out talks. Brooklyn is in an interesting spot with a glut of good 26-30 year old players without a clear direction. I could definitely see Rockets swinging them their picks back for some of Bridges, Dinwiddie, etc. with their picks coming due to OKC

I'm not very high on any of the 2023 free agents to be honest. I'd rather use our cap space and some of our bevy of picks to trade for players if we can. Ideally we'll be able to trade for another star player to pair with Lauri.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Not true at all. By far the best (and logical) tank move would have been to flip Lauri, one of the best trade assets in the entire league this season, for an absolute king's ransom.

For some reason DA decided he'd rather watch Markkanen's value decline as he keeps losing with the rest of the dudes we have left.

We didn't need to get that drastic my dude. We will end up 6th or 7th and have one half of an all-star duo in place. A **** ton of picks to work with. We got to get super valuable data on the guys we have and will end up in a very similar spot with regard to lotto odds. Lauri's value only goes up and he has 2 more years of team control. Move him next deadline if you feel like you must and we will get a haul.

 

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

Ingles, Royce, Rudy, Donovan, Bojan and Mike...all gone. Oh, and Quin too.

Other than Udoka, Clarkson is about the only holdover from the Dennis Lindsey era.

 

[Korisfani]

We will end up 6th or 7th and have one half of an all-star duo in place.

The Jazz might end up 6th or 7th. Or others currently behind us will be just as bad. That seed will more probably turn into a worse rather than better pick than the seed. Picking 8th might get someone decent or a non-entity.

Lauri's value only goes up and he has 2 more years of team control. Move him next deadline if you feel like you must and we will get a haul.

Every day his contract is running out and losing value. He can personally improve his play of course, but that doesn't seem likely at least for the rest of the season in this hot mess. If the extension rules change, then the drop in value by the day might be different.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

The Jazz might end up 6th or 7th. Or others currently behind us will be just as bad. That seed will more probably turn into a worse rather than better pick than the seed. Picking 8th might get someone decent or a non-entity.

Well I'd rather pick 8th than 13th... 8th has a chance to go top 4. If you are going to be a negative fatalist every path leads to death so do whatever the **** you want because none of it matters.

Every day his contract is running out and losing value. He can personally improve his play of course, but that doesn't seem likely at least for the rest of the season in this hot mess. If the extension rules change, then the drop in value by the day might be different.

Really not how it works. As long as you move someone before the final year of the contract you will normally get tremendous value. The cost is waiting until next year is minimal and if you landed some additional players that helped you win now you'd be wishing you had waited. Also... if the rest of the season is a "hot mess" how are we not falling to 6/7 when most of the teams directly behind us are actually trending up...

 

[Eddie Zero]

The Jazz might end up 6th or 7th. Or others currently behind us will be just as bad. That seed will more probably turn into a worse rather than better pick than the seed. Picking 8th might get someone decent or a non-entity.


Every day his contract is running out and losing value. He can personally improve his play of course, but that doesn't seem likely at least for the rest of the season in this hot mess. If the extension rules change, then the drop in value by the day might be different.

exactly and there is a possibility even though not right now at all, that he decides he wants to move on. This team of vets was the best situation for him before the trades. Now he will go back to being closer to the player he was before coming here. Either that or teams trying to win still will just let him rack up points and not let anyone else score easily.
I think there is a good chance he could carry this team as is though to the point that many of these tank dreamers are back to crying all the time. that Minnesota pick gets worse as well with Mike there and its double jeopardy

 

[Eddie Zero]

Sir they are giving A- while you are saying A++

And when someone pointed you to an Andy Larsen article (a very objective reporter) that was slightly critical of the trade you told them to **** off.

not to mention those assholes saying we got a deal are the one's in bed with the Lakers , and other orgs, and are trolling us.
Ainge deserves a C- grade on the deal here unless 2 or more of the following 4 things happen
1 that Jazz are bad enough now they win the lottery
2 despite giving them an upgrade the Wolves are a lottery team
3 both young players we got back are in the NBA on the Jazz and in the rotation here in 3 years
4 the Lakers pick is 5 or 6th overall in 2027

 

[Korisfani]

Well I'd rather pick 8th than 13th... 8th has a chance to go top 4. If you are going to be a negative fatalist every path leads to death so do whatever the **** you want because none of it matters.

Where did you get 13th?

And I'm being a realist. Rather than ending up with the 6th seed, 7/8 is what happens most often. With 7/8 seed you end up with with the 8/9 pick most often. With the 8/9 pick you're rarely getting an All-Star.

Being a negative fatalist would be saying that the Jazz end up with the 10th pick from the 6th seed and that player will never contribute anything. And I obviously think that's what's likely to happen. Someone like Dyson Daniels or Obi Toppin with the pick would be a nice addition to pretty much any team. Not franchise-changing though.

Saying, at every turn, that the 8th has a chance to go top 4 is hopelessly optimistic.

Really not how it works. As long as you move someone before the final year of the contract you will normally get tremendous value. The cost is waiting until next year is minimal and if you landed some additional players that helped you win now you'd be wishing you had waited.

Any evidence for this?

Also... if the rest of the season is a "hot mess" how are we not falling to 6/7 when most of the teams directly behind us are actually trending up...

Because the Jazz have to undertake all the teams that are catchable. The Pacers are definitely not trending up, quite the opposite. Maybe Porzingis turns his ankle, maybe Dame breaks his wrist. Undertaking 1-2 teams can be pretty simple. Undertaking half a dozen teams means everything has to go right (wrong?) for that to happen.

 

[Step-Back Hook]

Because the Jazz have to undertake all the teams that are catchable. The Pacers are definitely not trending up, quite the opposite. Maybe Porzingis turns his ankle, maybe Dame breaks his wrist. Undertaking 1-2 teams can be pretty simple. Undertaking half a dozen teams means everything has to go right (wrong?) for that to happen.

Then gotta lose games against other tankers and it gets easier. As for teams around our record we have four games against OKC and two against LAL but Lakers are not tanking though. Then we have once Indiana and Magic and Toronto

 

[YoungJefe]

I'm not very high on any of the 2023 free agents to be honest. I'd rather use our cap space and some of our bevy of picks to trade for players if we can. Ideally we'll be able to trade for another star player to pair with Lauri.

The only way we're adding another star is in the draft or via trade.