Its Time to Tank

[Handlogten's Heros]

Also some geniuses in Vegas decided we were going to win what like 23 games... and two morons on here like me and @Elizah Huge told everyone that was free money. Look we are still morons and they are still geniuses by my model kicked their model in the nards.

 

[YoungJefe]

If we land a spot at 6 something significantly bad happened to the Finnisher.

Or we sold off Conley, Clarkson, Beasley, Vanderbilt, and Olynyk.

 

[Korisfani]

We are 27-28 including a 10-3 at start. Without this crazy strat where verebody were playing at 110% we are 17-25, definitly a lottery team.

Every team has a "crazy" streak.

The Jazz's nearest competitors have had these stretches this season:
OKC 8-3
Blazers 9-3
Lakers 8-2
Timberwolves 11-4
Pelicans 12-2

You take out those stretches when each of them were playing "110 %", they're all guaranteed lottery teams. Most of them are about 17-25 without those stretches.

This current pre-deadline Jazz are a .500 team, just like the Blazers, just like the T-wolves, just like OKC. That can of course change quickly with big trades.

And i still don't see the interest to end 10th and loosing in play in.

I don't think there's a person on this planet that has interest in that.

 

[Eddie Zero]

Or we sold off Conley, Clarkson, Beasley, Vanderbilt, and Olynyk.

wanna bet?

 

[LogGrad98]

my dream is we dump Gay, trade Mike and Vando and maybe Jordan I really like Malik i hope we keep him but it's time to tank hard for the rest of the season. I love Mike but it's time to move on, give him one last shot at a ring
And us another pick

I am really torn on the whole dump Gay thing. I mean, it would be better for the young guys to play and not a completely burnt Rudy Gay, but playing Gay solid minutes is one of the best things we can do for the tank. Hmmmm.

 

[KqWIN]

Also some geniuses in Vegas decided we were going to win what like 23 games... and two morons on here like me and @Elizah Huge told everyone that was free money. Look we are still morons and they are still geniuses by my model kicked their model in the nards.

Ironically, the math would have told you that Vegas was way underestimating the Jazz. There was no bigger discrepancy between Vegas and the numbers than the UTA Jazz. Vegas is not a 1:1 with the models. It is there to align with public opinion.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Ironically, the math would have told you that Vegas was way underestimating the Jazz. There was no bigger discrepancy between Vegas and the numbers than the UTA Jazz. Vegas is not a 1:1 with the models. It is there to align with public opinion.

Its a longer conversation but sure... I also just got the answer by looking at the roster and saying "we have a lot of actual NBA players and no huge projects that need to play... we will win more than Houston etc."

 

[Coach Ellis]

I am really torn on the whole dump Gay thing. I mean, it would be better for the young guys to play and not a completely burnt Rudy Gay, but playing Gay solid minutes is one of the best things we can do for the tank. Hmmmm.

I wouldn’t go out of my way or send assets to do it. I’m perfectly fine if they keep him and just buy him out after the season is over - maybe even stretch and waive him.

 

[KqWIN]

Its a longer conversation but sure... I also just got the answer by looking at the roster and saying "we have a lot of actual NBA players and no huge projects that need to play... we will win more than Houston etc."

Right....I don't care to go through the current conversation you're having, but this Jazz season is a massive example in favor of the models. You didn't have to be genius or look at a model to realize that the Jazz had a bunch of players that don't suck....but let's not act like it was some guy crunching numbers that set the line at 23.5. Anyone who was crunching numbers would have came to the conclusion that the Jazz weren't that bad as constructed and would win way more than 23.5 games.

 

[Korisfani]

Just as an aside, the money on the season long futures is quite small. People like us putting $20 on the Jazz. The money on the game day lines is much bigger, with all the whales and pros betting then. Then in the playoffs the broader public comes in.

So Vegas and anyone else don't have to fear as much by having the futures lines off. The pros aren't "freezing" six figures for 8 months to wait for the results.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Well bitches… it’s today!!!

 

[Elizah Huge]

It really isn’t. We could get to as high as 6th to be honest. Not with the way the team currently is constructed though. We are a playoff team if we don’t make any trades.

I posted this back on 11/27. 6th spot here we come!

 

[idiot]

(Kind of responding to the tanking argument in the other thread. Can we move things here, where they belong, if there's anything more to say?):

Just my view:

• If we think the Jazz are tanking this year, they've failed miserably at that task. 538 (takes into account our current players, I think) has us finishing 39-43. Can anyone legitimately point to a "tanking "team that finished 39-43 -- or even 35-47, if we figure the Jazz lose a few more than that projection?
• "Tanking," to me should be reserved for rather single-mindedly trying to lose games to get the best draft pick possible. Again, even based on the Windhorst criteria (watch what they do, not what they say) we're very far from tanking so far this year.
• When college programs bring in a new regime, and don't play upperclassmen, and maybe even push a few capable players out, we don't call that tanking. We just assume that it's a program reset. Why are we trying to fold these types of actions under the "tanking" umbrella when it comes to the NBA? Getting rid of the players you don't see as part of the future for future assets isn't "tanking" per se. It's a reset. And resets can include the fact that one's own pick will benefit in the process. But it's only one part of the process. Tanking, by contrast, is the single-minded pursuit of the highest possible draft pick -- prioritizing one's own pick over every other possible team-building strategy. Again, by this measure, we've failed miserably at tanking this year. (Of course, it's possible, to deliberately try to throw games, as the Harrison Barnes-picking Warriors did for a limited period of time. We may get there, but we're not there yet. In any case, it would be greatly misleading to call this a tanking season. We already have six more wins with 22 games left than that Warriors team, who only did a limited-time tank, had at the end of the season.)
• I hypothesize that the reason we keep wanting to move into "tanking" language to describe the Jazz's actions is because we've convinced ourselves that the only realistic chance of building a championship (in a small market) is through tanking. We can't imagine that we're doing it right if we don't tank.

 

[fishonjazz]

• When college programs bring in a new regime, and don't play upperclassmen, and maybe even push a few capable players out, we don't call that tanking. We just assume that it's a program reset. Why are we trying to fold these types of actions under the "tanking" umbrella when it comes to the NBA? Getting rid of the players you don't see as part of the future for future assets isn't "tanking" per se. It's a reset. And resets can include the fact that one's own pick will benefit in the process. But it's only one part of the process. Tanking, by contrast, is the single-minded pursuit of the highest possible draft pick -- prioritizing one's own pick over every other possible team-building strategy.

Fair. then there is no such thing as tanking. Any move any team has ever made in the history of the nba could be explained as "getting rid of players you dont see as part of the future" or whatever. I mean lets say we trade Lauri Markennan and Walker Kessler tomorrow. I guess I could just come and post that "Lauri didn't fit the timeline and so we didn't see him as part of the future" and "Kessler cant shoot from outside and we wanted a center who could shoot better to be part of the future" So i could still just say we are just "resetting" or "rebuilding" and not tanking.

 

[HermanG]

Fair. then there is no such thing as tanking. Any move any team has ever made in the history of the nba could be explained as "getting rid of players you dont see as part of the future" or whatever. I mean lets say we trade Lauri Markennan and Walker Kessler tomorrow. I guess I could just come and post that "Lauri didn't fit the timeline and so we didn't see him as part of the future" and "Kessler cant shoot from outside and we wanted a center who could shoot better to be part of the future" So i could still just say we are just "resetting" or "rebuilding" and not tanking.

If we give up our best players its essentially the definition of a rebuild.

Had we traded Clarkson, KO and Sexton for peanuts so that we are starting Juzang, THT and Gay/Fontecchio with Lauri and Kessler.. thats tanking.

But its hard to gut the roster enough to tank with players like Lauri and Walker.

 

[HermanG]

(Kind of responding to the tanking argument in the other thread. Can we move things here, where they belong, if there's anything more to say?):

Just my view:

• If we think the Jazz are tanking this year, they've failed miserably at that task. 538 (takes into account our current players, I think) has us finishing 39-43. Can anyone legitimately point to a "tanking "team that finished 39-43 -- or even 35-47, if we figure the Jazz lose a few more than that projection?
• "Tanking," to me should be reserved for rather single-mindedly trying to lose games to get the best draft pick possible. Again, even based on the Windhorst criteria (watch what they do, not what they say) we're very far from tanking so far this year.
• When college programs bring in a new regime, and don't play upperclassmen, and maybe even push a few capable players out, we don't call that tanking. We just assume that it's a program reset. Why are we trying to fold these types of actions under the "tanking" umbrella when it comes to the NBA? Getting rid of the players you don't see as part of the future for future assets isn't "tanking" per se. It's a reset. And resets can include the fact that one's own pick will benefit in the process. But it's only one part of the process. Tanking, by contrast, is the single-minded pursuit of the highest possible draft pick -- prioritizing one's own pick over every other possible team-building strategy. Again, by this measure, we've failed miserably at tanking this year. (Of course, it's possible, to deliberately try to throw games, as the Harrison Barnes-picking Warriors did for a limited period of time. We may get there, but we're not there yet. In any case, it would be greatly misleading to call this a tanking season. We already have six more wins with 22 games left than that Warriors team, who only did a limited-time tank, had at the end of the season.)
• I hypothesize that the reason we keep wanting to move into "tanking" language to describe the Jazz's actions is because we've convinced ourselves that the only realistic chance of building a championship (in a small market) is through tanking. We can't imagine that we're doing it right if we don't tank.

Good post. It comes down to the definition of tanking. Some say there are varying degrees of tanking.

My definition is simple: Front office primary driver for decissions is to raise the value of our own draft pick.

While it may have been a silently approved or even outspoken possible benefit to the trade we made... I hope it wasnt the primary driver. As if it was our FO is not as competent as I believe them to be.

 

[idiot]

Fair. then there is no such thing as tanking. Any move any team has ever made in the history of the nba could be explained as "getting rid of players you dont see as part of the future" or whatever. I mean lets say we trade Lauri Markennan and Walker Kessler tomorrow. I guess I could just come and post that "Lauri didn't fit the timeline and so we didn't see him as part of the future" and "Kessler cant shoot from outside and we wanted a center who could shoot better to be part of the future" So i could still just say we are just "resetting" or "rebuilding" and not tanking.

I would classify rebuilding/resetting as the larger category (with multiple options within it), and tanking as one of those options (the one that prioritizes losing for the sake of a draft pick over all other options). You can rebuild (including getting rid of certain players that aren't going to be part of your future, and even get draft assets back for them) without tanking.

If you want to equate rebuilding and tanking, then we're just arguing about definitions.

If you want to argue that we've prioritized the best possible draft pick with our actions this year, I'll simply reply that we've done a terrible job at that. We haven't shied away from the possibility of a good draft pick, but we haven't made it the highest priority either.

 

[Thee Idiotic Minivan K]

If we think the Jazz are tanking this year, they've failed miserably at that task. 538 (takes into account our current players, I think) has us finishing 39-43. Can anyone legitimately point to a "tanking "team that finished 39-43 -- or even 35-47, if we figure the Jazz lose a few more than that projection?

Well, the year Stockton retired and Malone went to the lakers we had less talent than we have now and went 42-40 when all the experts had us winning 10 games. So this unable to tank thing has been tanking the jazz for damn near ever and the one time we did tank correctly we let magic slip through our fingers and as I’m writing this, didn’t we draft Dominique Wilkins and trade him for some somewhat washed up talent. This is depressing

 

[fishonjazz]

Had we traded Clarkson, KO and Sexton for peanuts so that we are starting Juzang, THT and Gay/Fontecchio with Lauri and Kessler.. thats tanking.

I disagree. That would mean we really want a good look at THT and Tech and we love that Gay provides veteran leadership on the court and we think Juzang has a untapped potential that we are trying to tap. That isn't tanking. Sorry.

 

[homeytennis]

Well let's sign Kevin Love and reunite him with Russ and go win a ring.