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Summer League Thread

Dalen Terry is a big miss for me. (another Dante-ish lanky guard/wing) I thought he'd be good...
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
I mean Booker means nothing to SGA and SGA means nothing to Herro... and Herro means nothing to Quickley... and Quickley means nothing to Fox... yet dumb draft people connect them for some reason. Why? Should we ignore that trend too?

Part of differentiating prospects for me would be looking at their production in the league they participate in and comparing it to the past. I'm sorry that is not something new or novel. Over the last 10 or so years it hasn't just been the French league that has produced some rough prospects. Low usage, low production, wings from outside college basketball in general is not something that has a whole of success attached to it. Its a very speculative pick... and while I am fine with risk... in the top 10 the risk outweighs the reward imo. If Wemby did not exist Bilal would not have been taken top 10 imo. I think his stock got a bit overheated.
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Hmm...maybe that has to do with a specific basketball situation for specific players. And you know what, there's something similar we do with players that don't even come from Kentucky. If a college program happens to play a specific brand of basketball that mutes players performance, we might consider it. Doesn't matter if it's at Kentucky or Arkansas. It's the basketball that matters. If Juwan Howard became the next Kentucky coach and brought his modern system with him, we would have a much different feeling about the Kentucky guard thing.

Like I said, by all means tell me the connection between Frank/Bilal beyond playing in the same league. Is it a basketball related connection? I can see that. Like maybe you're telling me we overvalue guys with long wingspans. There are a lot of guys with long wingspans that are not French. Maybe you want to make the argument that Frank and Bilal are actually very similar prospects. Low usage, low production wings.....ok that is reasonable. Heck, the guy we keep comparing him too is considered a bust by most people. It's not like we're dying on the sword for Bilal, but going back to what was initially said, it's just lazy to encompass everything as "French". If you're telling me he's too raw to succeed in the NBA or "insert basketball reason", that's fair. But just linking players together on the basis of being French is lazy. There are way more reasonable things to be skeptical about.

It's not hard to see why teams were high on him. Also not hard to see what they were overlooking in the process. It's not because of an implicit bias towards French guys.
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
Stop.

There's a huge common denominator with all those prospects. They all played for the same coach who has run the same archaic system all these years. These Kentucky teams have a constant that you cant point out in the French League.

Constants are what make scouting easier or harder. The more constants and fixed variables, the less you have to actually use your critical thinking skills to draw conclusions.
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Kewl, kewl, kewl... but what if a certain league has a trend of producing very few NBA players... and you have a player in that league that is producing at super low volumes? You don't factor that factor in all that heavily? It isn't just the French League with low usage wings. It isn't just Cal's system that produces undervalued guards.

These are all informed bets... if I am making a bet on something I will look at the actual bet of course but will consider relevant trends too.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
Kewl, kewl, kewl... but what if a certain league has a trend of producing very few NBA players... and you have a player in that league that is producing at super low volumes? You don't factor that factor in all that heavily? It isn't just the French League with low usage wings. It isn't just Cal's system that produces undervalued guards.

These are all informed bets... if I am making a bet on something I will look at the actual bet of course but will consider relevant trends too.
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I mean look, almost no one is getting drafted from the pakistani league. But Im sure there are great nba prospects in the pakastani league. The league doesn't matter.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
Kewl, kewl, kewl... but what if a certain league has a trend of producing very few NBA players... and you have a player in that league that is producing at super low volumes? You don't factor that factor in all that heavily? It isn't just the French League with low usage wings. It isn't just Cal's system that produces undervalued guards.

These are all informed bets... if I am making a bet on something I will look at the actual bet of course but will consider relevant trends too.
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As Stitches pointed out, the sample size is not enough to make these kinds of claims.
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
Yeah, he has not watched games and made up box scores to downplay his success.
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He was literally at the vegas summer league watching games. He is actually in a highlight video. You are really bad at this.
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
Yeah, he has not watched games and made up box scores to downplay his success.
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Yeah, I repeatedly haven’t mentioned how I saw him up close 5 rows from the court.

You also said he nearly had a 5x5 with 2 steals and 3 blocks.

You have become such a trash poster it’s quite sad.
 
fishonjazz said:
He was literally at the vegas summer league watching games. He is actually in a highlight video. You are really bad at this.
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Oh wow, he saw him live one time and it was the first time he has probably eve watched a full game of his and he went in with the bias of a someone who had a xenophobic hissy fit about the Jazz possibly selecting him and he came away unimpressed. Shocked.
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
Oh wow, he saw him live one time and it was the first time he has probably eve watched a full game of his and he went in with the bias of a someone who had a xenophobic hissy fit about the Jazz possibly selecting him and he came away unimpressed. Shocked.
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Thank for admitting you were wrong.
 
KqWIN said:
Hmm...maybe that has to do with a specific basketball situation for specific players. And you know what, there's something similar we do with players that don't even come from Kentucky. If a college program happens to play a specific brand of basketball that mutes players performance, we might consider it. Doesn't matter if it's at Kentucky or Arkansas. It's the basketball that matters. If Juwan Howard became the next Kentucky coach and brought his modern system with him, we would have a much different feeling about the Kentucky guard thing.

Like I said, by all means tell me the connection between Frank/Bilal beyond playing in the same league. Is it a basketball related connection? I can see that. Like maybe you're telling me we overvalue guys with long wingspans. There are a lot of guys with long wingspans that are not French. Maybe you want to make the argument that Frank and Bilal are actually very similar prospects. Low usage, low production wings.....ok that is reasonable. Heck, the guy we keep comparing him too is considered a bust by most people. It's not like we're dying on the sword for Bilal, but going back to what was initially said, it's just lazy to encompass everything as "French". If you're telling me he's too raw to succeed in the NBA or "insert basketball reason", that's fair. But just linking players together on the basis of being French is lazy. There are way more reasonable things to be skeptical about.

It's not hard to see why teams were high on him. Also not hard to see what they were overlooking in the process. It's not because of an implicit bias towards French guys.
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You are the one in this discussion simply tying them to being French. That is not what it is... I will tell you what the connection is

Player A - 5 pts, 2 rebs, 1.4 ast 48/43/62 shooting splits 18 minutes per game
Player B - 5 pts, 3 rebs, .8 asst 53/45/60 shooting splits 18 minutes per game

Both played in the same league... both touted as guys that would be on ball... both top 10 picks... both with great physical profiles... You could tell me which player is which I'm sure... but I bet most others would be pretty split.

So yeah its not Xenophobic or based on where their parents had sex or whatever that makes people think they have seen this movie before. Its skepticism based on a guy with similar production in the same league who had similar upside. I'm not writing the kid off just saying its okay to compare them and be a bit skeptical on what you might be buying into with Bilal. Does not mean he will be Frankie Smokes.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
Kewl, kewl, kewl... but what if a certain league has a trend of producing very few NBA players... and you have a player in that league that is producing at super low volumes? You don't factor that factor in all that heavily? It isn't just the French League with low usage wings. It isn't just Cal's system that produces undervalued guards.

These are all informed bets... if I am making a bet on something I will look at the actual bet of course but will consider relevant trends too.
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IMO the red flag in the Franks and Sekou and Bilal's pre-draft profiles was their actual play and lack of offensive polish(manifesting in low usage) rather than the league they were playing in. IMO you would have been able to see that in pretty much any league they played in, including in D1 basketball in the US. Unless the league is complete dog **** and they are facing zero resistance(I would consider French Youth leagues in that category), you should be good just watching them play and making your mind on what they are actually showing on the court...
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
Oh wow, he saw him live one time and it was the first time he has probably eve watched a full game of his and he went in with the bias of a someone who had a xenophobic hissy fit about the Jazz possibly selecting him and he came away unimpressed. Shocked.
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Sorry, how many times have you seen him live?
 
stitches said:
IMO the red flag in the Franks and Sekou and Bilal's pre-draft profiles was their actual play and lack of offensive polish(manifesting in low usage) rather than the league they were playing in. IMO you would have been able to see that in pretty much any league they played in, including in D1 basketball in the US. Unless the league is complete dog **** and they are facing zero resistance(I would consider French Youth leagues in that category), you should be good just watching them play and making your mind on what they are actually showing on the court...
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Bilal wouldn’t get drafted in the top-7 if he put up that type of production in college or any other league.
 
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