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Summer League Thread

Elizah Huge said:
It has nothing to do with him being French dude… it’s the France A League he’s playing in.
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Replace everything that says "French" with "plays in the French league". Who cares, it's the same meaning in this conversation. If can't distinguish a player from the league, it's just plain lazy. Wemby and Bilal being teammates is the most obvious example of this. You've got to be able to evaluate a player as an individual.
 
KqWIN said:
If I say Bilal is drafted high and it's not because he's French, I am directly stating that he is not being drafted high because he is French. I can't even comprehend how you could interpret that differently. How can I say that Bilal was drafted high for reasons that are not being French? Maybe someone can assist, I don't know how to dumb it down more.

I have said over and over that comparing two players on the basketball things, like low production, makes sense. Comparing them simply on the basis of being French, does not make very much sense. I would agree that reducing a player down to being French is stupid, which is what I have been saying since the start of this discussion. Until I figure out how to communicate this I do not know where to go from here.
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Its because that is not the point of contention at all.
 
KqWIN said:
Replace everything that says "French" with "plays in the French league". Who cares, it's the same meaning in this conversation. If can't distinguish a player from the league, it's just plain lazy. Wemby and Bilal being teammates is the most obvious example of this. You've got to be able to evaluate a player as an individual.
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Its not though... lots of French guys play in other leagues.
 
Do people think I just dislike Bilal for the **** of it especially with all of the sound analysis I had with literally every other prospect?
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
Its because that is not the point of contention at all.
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The point in contention is if guys are overrated on the basis of being "French", and yes, I mean guys coming from the French League. And for the record, both are stupid. To judge a player solely on the basis of having French nationality or playing in the French league is stupid. A player is not better or worse on the basis of being French or playing in the French league. Dean's original post included the term "French guys". Whatever he meant by that, who freaking cares it's stupid it either way. It is totally lazy to group up guys and discount them in that manner.

If you want to group guys up based on their skillset, production, you know....how good they are basketball. That makes sense. It's why I've said there are legit question marks about Bilal. But to question him specifically because he's "French", either meaning, is lazy.
 
Elizah Huge said:
Do people think I just dislike Bilal for the **** of it especially with all of the sound analysis I had with literally every other prospect?
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Truthfully, I think you're just quadrupling down on your predraft rant that Bilal at #9 is not a thing. But to your credit, you were absolutely spot on about that.
 
Whether it is Mario Hezonja/Dragan Bender in Euro League or Frankie/Sekou in French League... the drafting of low usage/low production/low minute guys has been a rough route to take.
 
framer said:
Not hard enough to actually chase him. I was kinda pissed that they didn't chase Walker either, but now watching him play, I get it. Besides being a Monster defensively, he's probably never going to shoot well.
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I mean the reports were that the Jazz were trying hard to move up in the draft.
 
KqWIN said:
If I say Bilal is drafted high and it's not because he's French, I am directly stating that he is not being drafted high because he is French. I can't even comprehend how you could interpret that differently. How can I say that Bilal was drafted high for reasons that are not being French? Maybe someone can assist, I don't know how to dumb it down more.
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I think his argument is more along the lines of - them playing in a French pro league is viewed as an excuse for low production. As in... for example, they play against men, they are younger than the competition, they are not yet trusted by the coach as the youngsters of the team, etc. So we assume there is unrealized potential and skills that are there but not shown, simply because they are lower on the totem pole as the 18 year olds on a professional team.

To some degree I agree actually. I think it's overstated how young players are being protected in Europe. IMO this is a legitimate knock on Bilal - his inability to seize more of a role on offense. I think it shows what his coach believes his current ability is and what he believes will help his team win. And huge majority of players who have come to the NBA from Europe and actually succeeded offensively, have actually shown stuff in Europe. I was thinking about French players who have actually succeeded in the NBA before the current drought.
Batum was scoring 11-12pts per game with 4ast and 4rbs as an 18 year old in France. Tony Parker averaged 15pts as a 19 year old in France. Evan Fournier averaged 14 a game as a 19 year old in France... I guess Boris Diaw is the only one that had similar stats to Bilal and succeeded in the NBA...

KqWIN said:
I have said over and over that comparing two players on the basketball things, like low production, makes sense. Comparing them simply on the basis of being French, does not make very much sense. I would agree that reducing a player down to being French is stupid, which is what I have been saying since the start of this discussion. Until I figure out how to communicate this I do not know where to go from here.
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Agreed.... I think the skills and the production that results from that skill is the real big factor here... not the fact that they are French or come from the French league...
 
Elizah Huge said:
I just don’t get what is so controversial about me stating I would be a little wary of French A League prospects due to them not producing any decent let alone good NBA players in over a decade.
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Its not controversial. People are just being weird.

Im sure that soccer fans in brazil and spain often say that the US leagues dont produce great players in their leagues. And they would be correct.
 
KqWIN said:
The point in contention is if guys are overrated on the basis of being "French", and yes, I mean guys coming from the French League. And for the record, both are stupid. To judge a player solely on the basis of having French nationality or playing in the French league is stupid. A player is not better or worse on the basis of being French or playing in the French league. Dean's original post included the term "French guys". Whatever he meant by that, who freaking cares it's stupid it either way. It is totally lazy to group up guys and discount them in that manner.

If you want to group guys up based on their skillset, production, you know....how good they are basketball. That makes sense. It's why I've said there are legit question marks about Bilal. But to question him specifically because he's "French", either meaning, is lazy.
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But that's clearly not the argument (maybe its Dean's I guess). Its that they didn't produce in that league. Whether that extends to every league then extend it out if you want. No one is saying Wemby is a bust cuz he's French. He produced in a pro league. Guys that don't produce in pro leagues and get drafted based on unlazy eye test analysis rather than historical results... have typically disappointed. Its okay to point that out.
 
fishonjazz said:
Its not controversial. People are just being weird.

Im sure that soccer fans in brazil and spain often say that the US leagues dont produce great players in their leagues. And they would be correct.
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leagues don't make players you lazy racialist pig.
 
KqWIN said:
Truthfully, I think you're just quadrupling down on your predraft rant that Bilal at #9 is not a thing. But to your credit, you were absolutely spot on about that.
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Lol only for the opposite reason of what I thought.
 
stitches said:
I think his argument is more along the lines of - them playing in a French pro league is viewed as an excuse for low production. As in... for example, they play against men, they are younger than the competition, they are not yet trusted by the coach as the youngsters of the team, etc. So we assume there is unrealized potential and skills that are there but not shown, simply because they are lower on the totem pole as the 18 year olds on a professional team.
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Yup!

stitches said:
To some degree I agree actually. I think it's overstated how young players are being protected in Europe. IMO this is a legitimate knock on Bilal - his inability to seize more of a role on offense. I think it shows what his coach believes his current ability is and what he believes will help his team win. And huge majority of players who have come to the NBA from Europe and actually succeeded offensively, have actually shown stuff in Europe. I was thinking about French players who have actually succeeded in the NBA before the current drought.
Batum was scoring 11-12pts per game with 4ast and 4rbs as an 18 year old in France. Tony Parker averaged 15pts as a 19 year old in France. Evan Fournier averaged 14 a game as a 19 year old in France... I guess Boris Diaw is the only one that had similar stats to Bilal and succeeded in the NBA...


Agreed.... I think the skills and the production that results from that skill is the real big factor here... not the fact that they are French or come from the French league...
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